History and Crimes

[Ioana]

Hi, I know that this is a fairly controversial topic and sensitive topic. I have several questions. I’d like an honest an informed answer from whoever may have it. Whatever the answer is it won’t lead me to leave or anything so you don’t have to be afraid of scandalizing me and I doubt you’d scandalize anyone else.

I was curious about the history of abuse (of all types) in Catholic institutions, particularly in Ireland

1. I’ve heard about the Magdalene laundries and abuse there. How true is that and around which period did the abuse peak? More importantly, what was the motive behind the abuse?
2. I’ve also heard something about some undocumented burials of 800 kids. What was the motive behind that?
3. How were Catholic institutions and the care they offered compared to the alternatives at the time?

Some more general questions:

1. How are Catholic orphanages (and other institutions but particularly orphanages) worldwide compared to secular ones in similar positions? Why?
2. What is a general gist of “all the horrible stuff the Church did/ is accused of doing”?

And on a different note:

1. Would you say the net contribution (from a strictly social-work perspective) of the Church was positive historically (going waaaay back)? Would you say it held a monopoly on hospitals and stuff for not so altruistic reasons
2. What are some genuinely good things that the Church has done/is doing (social work wise)?

Cheers

 

[Rob2]

1. I’ve heard about
2. I’ve also heard something

You’ve done a lot of hearing about .

Where did you hear it all ?

 

[Lou2U]

Following this thread, because I don’t know as much on this topic as I would like, but to try and answer some of your question about what occurred in the institutions from what I’ve read:

There appeared to be dehumanisation. Girls as young as 14 were put into these orphanages and laundries because they had had a baby out of wedlock, whether through rape or any other circumstance. When they gave birth, their baby was taken off them, given a new name and adopted - the girls were not allowed to know anything about them and the baby was often told they had been willingly given up. Some were sent to them for more spurious reasons, such as being too pretty, apparently. They were given a new name, new clothes, their heads were shaved as punishments and also they were kept in small enclosed spaces as a punishment. Girls were kept in the laundries unpaid.

According to one book I read, there was also the prevention of women having any more children through the use of a procedure called symphysiotomy, where the pelvic bone was broken to allow for a natural birth and not a cesarean, which has caused long term and in some cases permanent disability.

A lot of anger has been caused by this, not least because a lot of these findings came out around the same time as the sex scandals of Priests. I think Catholicism has taken a hit it’s not been able to recover from.

 

[Lou2U]

Here’s an article about the history of Magdalene laundries: https://www.claddaghdesign.com/history/the-magdalene-laundries-irelands-dark-past/. Motivations from abuse seemingly come from contempt of the women who were in them.

The Tuam babies: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39192744 and Ireland’s ‘house of tears’: Why Tuam’s survivors want justice for lost and abused children - The Globe and Mail (the second is long, but worth it).

 

[Ioana]

Living in the UK. I don’t think we should hide this. I think we should get our facts straight. I’ve heard anti-Catholic rhetoric. I don’t want to make us look like naive idiots “Ah…so what were the these laundries?” or inconsiderate demons “nah nah it wasn’t bad” (when it was). The truth will set us free on this issue.

 

[Ioana]

Cheers. I personally know somebody who was abused in a mental health institution in the UK in the most horrendous way. I just didn’t think it was possible before I heard it (in such a seemingly well organized and civilized location). Her case is currently worth millions. This + common decency makes me think that the cases in Ireland can’t be ignored or brushed off. That being said, if most people around a certain period of time lived in rubbish conditions it is unfair to blame it on the Church as an institution, but rather on the state as a whole + the individuals involved. The stuff that happened in Ireland just did not seem to have happened elsewhere. The key word is seem. My Dad’s lived in Paraguay a while. He talked about the support girls receive if pregnant from religious institutions in an admiring manner (granted this was in the capital) so I expected it was the same everywhere. I also previously heard that Ireland was seen as the forefront of Catholicity for a while. How did that ideal lead to that sort of abuse? It just puts all sorts of questions. I think there’s a side where we need to be compassionate to victims and do everything possible to prevent that sort of stuff but I also think it is important to not shout mea culpa at every single attack because for some of them that is not true (ie yes horrible stuff happened, but it was a bit more complicated than often portrayed). Also; side question (don’t mean to sound rude) how do we interpret “By their fruits you shall know them” in light of all this?

 

[Lou2U]

This + common decency makes me think that the cases in Ireland can’t be ignored or brushed off. That being said, if most people around a certain period of time lived in rubbish conditions it is unfair to blame it on the Church as an institution, but rather on the state as a whole + the individuals involved. The stuff that happened in Ireland just did not seem to have happened elsewhere.

I read somewhere that although there were Magdalene laundries all over the world, and procedures such as symphysiotomy occurred elsewhere, it was different in Ireland. I think it’s partly due to the fact that it occurred in Ireland and very rarely in Europe as a whole so that shocked a lot of people. I also think the fact that it was done primarily by nuns (and was revealed at the same time as that of the sex scandals) did point to it being the CC as an institution as opposed to individuals, whether that’s the right judgement to make or not. Furthermore, the cruelty dealt by individuals who professed love and tolerance for all reflected badly on the institution as a whole.

Other issues have come from how this has been dealt with. The charities involved with the organisations refused to give compensation for some time and some of the nuns working at the laundries dismissed the claims. I think there is still feeling that some have not been heard.

 

[Ioana]

Yeah, it’s just sad really. Makes you disappointed in humanity.

 

[Lou2U]

Yeah, it’s just sad really. Makes you disappointed in humanity.

I agree. I don’t understand how it all could have happened, except to consider that society viewed these women in a much different way than we do now. And instead of responding with compassion and empathy, there was cruelty and institutionalisation. Just awful, the whole thing.