History of the Roman Catholic Church

[Protestant101]

Right - the CHURCH has authority given it by Jesus himself (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:13-15, 20:22-23).

Your problem is that you think the written word is the only word of God.
As Catholics, we believe in Sola Dei Verbum - the Word of God alone - not Sola Scriptura - the written sctipture alone.

**You nullify **the word of God with your Sola Scriptura because it is taught nowhere in scripture.
You also nullify the word of Jesus in John 16:13:
"But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming."

“Sola Scriptura” is not taught against anywhere in the Bible. I did not write the parts of the Bible where God condemns certain types of “tradition.” The types that it does not condemn, are always contained in the written Word.

 

[elvisman]

“Sola Scriptura” is not taught against anywhere in the Bible. I did not write the parts of the Bible where God condemns certain types of “tradition.” The types that it does not condemn, are always contained in the written Word.

That is an extremely** weak**** argument for the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura. ******

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Just as doctrines such as the Trinity are not explicitly taught in Scripture, they are implicit - Sola Scriptura is taught against implicitly.

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2 Tim. 3:8
"Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so they also oppose the truth-people of depraved mind, unqualified in the faith."
(The names of these 2 magicians are mentioned NOWHERE in the Old Testament.)

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1 Tim. 1:13-14
Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me**, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. **
Guard this rich trust with the help of the Holy Spirit** that dwells within us. **

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1 Tim. 2:1-2
"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."

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2 Thess. 2:15
**"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions **which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter"

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Acts 15:28-29
***“*It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us ****not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell." **

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1 Cor. 11:2
**“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you". **

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Ephesians 5:14
“… for everything that becomes visible is light. Therefore, it says: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light." (This is not from scripture and has been attributed to an early Christian hymn)**

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Matt. 23:2–3
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice."

 

[raumzeitmc2]

There is no difference because whenever Christ did this; it was His purpose to set an example for Christians to also do, even today. A Christian does not claim authority; only the God who has authority. Jesus pointed to Scripture to show truth, and so do His followers today.

Are you denying this fundamental Truth?

Wow…that’s positively unbelievable!

Dude, no offense, but that sounds, well, just plain out there…LOL.

But surely you’re kidding!! Or is it conceivable that you actually are trying to convince me that there’s “no difference” whatsoever between your quoting / understanding of Scripture and that of Christ’s?? That your interpretation would be just as valid as his???!!! No, make that

But please, tell me I’m wrong. Tell me that I’m simply misunderstanding your meaning. Take my word, I’m more than willing to be corrected on this one!!

 

[brkn1]

Jesus was quoting what we call the Old Testament which came from Jewish oral Tradition.

The Old Testament part of Holy Scripture was written at the time Jesus quoted it, although your tradition seems to imply that it was only “Jewish oral Tradition”.

Jesus also read Scripture according to the NT.

 

[elvisman]

The Old Testament part of Holy Scripture was written at the time Jesus quoted it, although your tradition seems to imply that it was only “Jewish oral Tradition”.

Jesus also read Scripture according to the NT.

**Interesting that you would note that Jesus quoted from the Old Testament because he did. **
In fact, he quoted from and made reference to many passages from the Deuterocanonicals in the Septuagint - which Protestants by and large reject.

Here are a few examples:
Matt. 2:16** - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7**** - slaying the holy innocents.**
Matt. 6:19-20** - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure. **
Matt… 7:12** - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others. **
Matt. 7:16,20** - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation. **
Matt. 9:36** - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd. **
Matt. 16:18** - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13. **
Matt. 24:16** - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28. **
Matt. 27:43** - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18. **
Luke 1:52** - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14. **
Luke 13:29** - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37. **
John 3:13** - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29. **
John 1:3** - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1. **
John 6:35-59** - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21. **
John 10:22** - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59. **
John 10:36** – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36. **
John 15:6** - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5**** where branches are broken off.**

 

[brkn1]

Interesting that you would note that Jesus quoted from the Old Testament because he did.
In fact, he quoted from and made reference to many passages from the Deuterocanonicals in the Septuagint - which Protestants by and large reject.

Here are a few examples:
Matt. 2:16** - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7**** - slaying the holy innocents.**
Matt. 6:19-20** - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure. **
Matt… 7:12** - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others. **
Matt. 7:16,20** - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation. **
Matt. 9:36** - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd. **
Matt. 16:18** - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13. **
Matt. 24:16** - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28. **
Matt. 27:43** - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18. **
Luke 1:52** - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14. **
Luke 13:29** - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37. **
John 3:13** - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29. **
John 1:3** - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1. **
John 6:35-59** - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21. **
John 10:22** - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59. **
John 10:36** – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36. **
John 15:6** - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5**** where branches are broken off.**

There might be some good reasons to reject the Deuterocanonical Books.

None were written in the Hebrew language like the other OT Books.
They were not acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews.
There are contradictions to both the OT and NT Scripture in them.

Tobit 12:8-9, 17, “It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.”
Simon Magus would have liked that tradition, but Peter wasn’t buying into that method, according to the NT.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Tobit 12:8-9, 17, “It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.”
Simon Magus would have liked that tradition, but Peter wasn’t buying into that method, according to the NT.

“…and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtor.” Matt. 6:12

" forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father … in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. Mark 11:25

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses." Mark 11:26

“Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.” Luke 7:47

“But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins.” 1 Peter 4:8

“Hatred stirreth up strifes: and charity covereth all sins.” Proverbs 10:12

“He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.” James 5:20

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*“If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” *Matt. 19:16

“We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”
1 John 3:16

 

[Hisalone]

Right - the CHURCH has authority given it by Jesus himself (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:13-15, 20:22-23).

Your problem is that you think the written word is the only word of God.
As Catholics, we believe in Sola Dei Verbum - the Word of God alone - not Sola Scriptura - the written sctipture alone.

**You nullify **the word of God with your Sola Scriptura because it is taught nowhere in scripture.
You also nullify the word of Jesus in John 16:13:
"But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming."

Jesus gave authority to all His disciples.
Show me what other than scripture is the word of God.
The Spirit of truth is given to all believers.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Jesus gave authority to all His disciples.

Where in the bible does it say this?

 

[elvisman]

There might be some good reasons to reject the Deuterocanonical Books.

None were written in the Hebrew language like the other OT Books.
They were not acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews.
There are contradictions to both the OT and NT Scripture in them.

Tobit 12:8-9, 17, “It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.”
Simon Magus would have liked that tradition, but Peter wasn’t buying into that method, according to the NT.

First of all, Jesus read, quoted and referred to the Deuterocanonicals - as I’ve shown you. If Jesus deemed them inspired - so do I.

Secondly, you don’t know your Scripture, friend.
Simon Magus was attempting to purchase the power of laying hands so that others might receive the Holy Spirit. It had nothing to do with giving alms to the poor.

 

[elvisman]

Jesus gave authority to all His disciples.
Show me what other than scripture is the word of God.
The Spirit of truth is given to all believers.

Sho me where Jesus gave Authority and the power to bind and loose to “all His disciples”.

For Scriptural proof of Oral Tradition (also the Word of God) - apart from the Written word - read my response to Protestant101, # 317.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Bishop Sheen wrote:

Read the rest of what he says in…You’ll note in these couple of pages that Sheen touches briefly on the enormously important subject of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Tragically, it is this same Mystical Body which our Protestant brethren, due to their exclusive focus on a book (and attendant exaltation of self) essentially reject.

Thanks for that post, the reference to BIshop Sheen (which clears it up a little for me) and for the rest of your message. Excellent!!

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Jesus gave authority to all His disciples.
Show me what other than scripture is the word of God.
The Spirit of truth is given to all believers.

Which one of the over 33,000 protestant sects teaches the truth?

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

There might be some good reasons to reject the Deuterocanonical Books.

And there might not be any.

None were written in the Hebrew language like the other OT Books.

They were quoted by the Lord. That’s good enough for me.

They were not acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews.

Completely irrelevant.

There are contradictions to both the OT and NT Scripture in them.

I don’t know enough about them to agree or disagree, but I do know contradictions and/or seeming contradictions abound in Scripture, which is why Scripture cannot be relied on as the only word of God. For example, in John 12:3, we are told Mary of Bethany annoints Jesus’ feet with nard. In Mark, describing the same event in 14:3 he says an unidentified woman annointed Jesus’ head. Which one is true?

Your reference to SImon Magus is waaaaay off.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Jesus gave authority to all His disciples.
Show me what other than scripture is the word of God.
The Spirit of truth is given to all believers.

Hmmm… that’s funny, your assertion flatly contradicts Protestant101’s, who said,

“A Christian does not claim authority; only God has authority.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4986179&postcount=313

Which of course, flatly contradicts your other assertion that the “Spirit of truth is given to all believers.”

But this comes as hardly a surprise. So what else is new? LOL. :

But going back to the beginning of the reform, Luther himself, very soon after his revolt, began seeing the rotten fruits of “private interpretation,” of men imagining themselves guided by the Holy Spirit. Listen to his words.

There are as many sects and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow will have nothing to do with baptism, another denies the Sacrament, a third believes that there is another world between this and the Last Day.

Some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some that …

There is now no rustic so rude but that, if he dreams or fancies anything, it must be the whisper of the Holy Ghost and he himself a prophet…

There is no one who does not wish to be cleverer than Luther; they all want to try their steel on me…They speak like madmen;

I have during the year to listen to many such wretched folk. In no other way can the devil come so close to me, that I must admit. Formerly the world was full of noisy, disembodied spirits giving themselves out to be the souls of men; now it is full of uproarious spirits with bodies, who all declare that they are real angels.

Letter of the beginning of April, 1525, to the Christians at Antwerp (An die Christen zu Antwerpen)

In, Luther, Hartmann Grisar, vol. 4:407

Full German text of this letter in W.M. L. De Wette, vol. 3, pp. 60-64

Dear heavens, what interminable lunacy!! :whacky: LOL

 

[brkn1]

First of all, Jesus read, quoted and referred to the Deuterocanonicals - as I’ve shown you. If Jesus deemed them inspired - so do I.

**Secondly, you don’t **know your Scripture, friend.
Simon Magus was attempting to purchase the power of laying hands so that others might receive the Holy Spirit. It had nothing to do with giving alms to the poor.

I know Scripture well enough to know that Simon Magus asked Peter to intercede for him, after Peter told him that his money was no good and that Simon Magus was in the gall of bitterness etc.
According to your “holy” Tobit 12:8-9,17, Peter should have told Simon Magus that “alms could deliver from death and shall purge away all sin.”

The least Peter might have done would have been to offer “confession”, but I notice that did not happen either.

Do you agree with Tobit 12:8-9,17 ?
Do you believe that alms can purge away all sin?

 

[guanophore]

What is the origin of the Catholic Church?"

Answer: Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus, or His apostles.

Is there somewhere in the NT you are using that says this? How can a cursory reading tell you that? Do you even know where your NT came from?

In the New Testament, there is no mention of …

You listed your religion as “confused”, and this is quite appropriate! There is mention in the NT for all these things, except for the worship/adoration of Mary, which is not Catholic. Worship and adoration belong to God alone. Giving this to anyone else is considered idolatry.

Perhaps you are reading your bible with anti-Catholic blinders on?

So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?

Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine …

I am interested in seeing the sources for this rendition of history. It is quite an imaginitive fable!

Constantine found that with the Roman Empire being so vast, expansive, and diverse – not everyone would agree to forsake their religious beliefs and instead embrace Christianity. So, Constantine allowed, and even promoted, the “Christianization” of pagan beliefs.

The most fatal error in this fable of Catholic history can be clearly seen here. As a non-Catholic, Constantine had no authority in the Church. He therefore was not able to “allow” or “promote” any doctrinal changes or creations. It would be like the President of the United STates today trying to do these things in the Church. It is just not possible. Of course, secular events can influence the Church. The de-crimminalization of Christianity was an important step, but had nothing to do with doctrine.

It is true,though, that after Catholicism was decrimminalized, the Church began to overtake Pagan shrines by storm, converting them into Churches. She also did this with the Pagan holidays, baptizing them and converting them into feast days for the Lord.

Completely pagan and utterly unbiblical beliefs were given new “Christian” identities. Some clear examples of this are as follows:

(1) The Cult of Isis, an Egyptian mother-goddess religion, was absorbed into Christianity by replacing Isis with Mary. Many of the titles that were used for Isis, such as “Queen of Heaven,” “Mother of God,” and “theotokos” (God-bearer) were attached to Mary. Mary was given an exalted role in the Christian faith, far beyond what the Bible ascribes to her, in order to attract Isis worshippers to a faith they would not otherwise embrace. Many temples to Isis were, in fact, converted into temples dedicated to Mary. The first clear hints of Catholic Mariology occur in the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened to be the focal point of Isis worship.

Certainly there are Pagan images that pre-date Christianity, the resurrection of the God-man being one also. The presence of a false “Queen of Heaven” does not mean there is not a true Queen of Heaven, any more than false Sons of God makes Jesus less the real Son of God. You may not accept that Jesus is God, either.

The main problem with your formulation here is that the Catholic Church does not consider Mary a “goddess”, nor do we worshop or make here the “focal point”. Such a thing would constitute idolatry, as you correctly suggest.

(2) Mithraism was a religion in the Roman Empire in the 1st through 5th centuries A.D.

The comparison to Mithraism falls rather flat when one understands that the Eucharist finds its roots in the Passover, which predated Mithraism by about 2000 years.

. Mithraism also had seven “sacraments,” making the similarities between Mithraism and Roman Catholicism too many to ignore.

Not really. The Sacraments were instituted by Christ, and therefore, whatever rituals were practiced in Mithraism came from somewhere else. The Apostle Paul called them Gods that are no gods.

Constantine and his successors found an easy substitute for the sacrificial meal of Mithraism in concept of the Lord’s Supper / Christian Communion.

This is a groundless statement because non-believers were not admitted to the Eucharist. Constantine would have to complete catechumenate and the Rites of Intiation prior to being admitted to the Supper. Since he was unbaptized, he was not permitted. He may never have witnessed a Eucharist.

Sadly, some early Christians had already begun to attach mysticism to the Lord’s Supper, rejecting the Biblical concept of a simple and worshipful remembrance of Christ’s death and shed blood.

LOL. This one had to make me chuckle, since the mystery of the Eucharist pre-dated the Bible by about 400 years.

The Romanization of the Lord’s Supper made the transition to a sacrificial consumption of Jesus Christ, now known as the Catholic Mass / Eucharist, complete.

Sorry, scooter,this one falls flat on it’s face. Anyone making such an assertion would have to account for the consistency of the Catholic Mass all over the world, and the 22 non-Roman Rites who were not under the rule of Constantine, nor influenced by Roman language and culture. Catholicism is not Roman.

 

[brkn1]

“…and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtor.” Matt. 6:12

" forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father … in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. Mark 11:25

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses." Mark 11:26

“Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.” Luke 7:47

“But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins.” 1 Peter 4:8

“Hatred stirreth up strifes: and charity covereth all sins.” Proverbs 10:12

“He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.” James 5:20

---

*“If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” *Matt. 19:16

“We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”
1 John 3:16

You are a true believer. You believe that sin can be purged by giving alms.

 

[Thing]

You are a true believer. You believe that sin can be purged by giving alms.

‘Charity’ means our love of God or Gods love of us. I don’t know, however, if you thought charity meant almsgiving or not; but just in case.

 

[brkn1]

I don’t know enough about them to agree or disagree, but I do know contradictions and/or seeming contradictions abound in Scripture, which is why Scripture cannot be relied on as the only word of God. For example, in John 12:3, we are told Mary of Bethany annoints Jesus’ feet with nard. In Mark, describing the same event in 14:3 he says an unidentified woman annointed Jesus’ head. Which one is true?

Your reference to SImon Magus is waaaaay off.

So “Scripture cannot be relied on as the only word of God”, since you perceive some “seeming contradictions”?

Don’t worry, “holy” Tobit 12:8-9,17 says you can simply buy your way to heaven. Just memorize that verse and start giving out alms.

Have you considered the possibility that there were two different woman that annointed Jesus.