History Repeats Itself

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5245545:

I am always surprised that you are willing to answer more questions. This is a real
treat, does your patience never run dry?

According to Isaiah 42:6, Israel has been assigned as light unto the Gentiles. Here is the secret of my patience.

Is it scary living in Jerusalem? Do you live in fear of terrorists? If I were in Jerusalem,

I feel safer here than in Los Angeles. I can walk in the middle of the night without fear.

I would be looking around, wondering about the place where Jesus might return.

Jesus would not contradict the Scriptures by returning from the dead.

I would probably ask someone, “where’s the Mount of Olives?”

I have been up there several times. The Gethsemane is halfway up.

When you are looking around, do you feel like you are in a holy place? What do you look for?

**Yes, there is an aura of holiness throughout the place. I have walked twice through the “via dolorosa.” There is a plate-sigh indicating the spots where Jesus fell on his way to the Calvary. Then, for more than several times I went to the church of the holy sepulcher. I saw the place where he was washed before being laid in the tomb as well as the tomb itself. Only two persons at a time can get in there. It’s about 100 yards from the entrance to the actual place where he was laid to rest. I confess I got sometimes moved to see the size of faith of women embracing the actual spot where Jesus laid and crying non-stop. I would repeat going inside but just to see how emotions can be stormed as a result of faith that can move mountains. **

What signs are you looking for that the temple will be rebuilt?

Those signs I see more in the Temple Mount Yeshiva of Cohanim, where Levites and Cohens are preparing the rites and rules to resume the Temple activities. Including the Priestly clothing and all utensils.

Do you believe in the heaven not made with human hands? Where is “the bosom of Abraham” mentioned in Luke 16:23? Don’t you need sacrifices to have your sins forgiven? How do you have your sins forgiven now?

**No, but I believe in the heaven that we can make to each other here on earth.

The bosom of Abraham is the Land of the Living where we can observe the Mitzvot without being criticised as regalists. Remember the words of Jesus to the richman in hell. The only way not to get to the same place is by listening to Moses. This means by Torah observance. (Luke 16:29-31)

No, we do not need sacrifices to have our sins forgiven. We spent 70 years in Babylon and we never had one single sacrifice offered. At the end of the exile, our sins had been forgiven. (Dan. 9:24)

Now, we have our sins forgiven through the law of cause and effect, by being forgiven by those whom we offend, and by setting things right with God through repentance, restoration and obedience to the Law. (Isa. 1:18,19)**

 

[Ben_Masada]

JL: True Paul did not learn THE GOSPEL from any man, but thru direct revelation from our Lord. True Paul did not go, at that time, to Jerusalem to meet with those who were apostles before him.

Yes, but that’s what he said in the hope to introduce himself as an apostle, but his word was not worthy its salt.

Instead Paul went into Arabia, probably to rethink his OT theology in the light of Christ’s revelation, then returned to Damascus. Three years after his conversion Paul went to Jerusalem specifically to visit Peter with whom he remained fifteen days. Paul saw no other apostles except James, the head of the Jerusalem Church.

What happened to Paul in the Road to Damascus was not conversion but a change of strategy. He had come to the conclusion that by physically persecuting the Nazarenes would only make them grow. So, he decided to join them three years later in order to continue fighting them from inside. Thanks God he was rejected and banned back to Tarsus where he belonged.

JL: Paul never referred to the gospel of the Apostles Fellowship as “the other gospel”. “The other gospel” to which Paul was referring, was the false gospel of circumcision and other Mosaic requirements some Jewish followers of Christ, called Judaizers, were preaching. These Judaizers went out from the fellowship on there own, they were not sent by the apostles.

**Very good! Now, allow me to prove that you are wrong. If those Judaizers had not been sent by the Apostles, why would Paul take them to Jerusalem to get things straight with the Apostles? Read Acts 15:1-10. Nice try my friend, but it didn’t do it. **

In Galatians two, Paul tells us, he checked his teaching again with that one Apostolic Fellowship. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.] So after three years Paul met with Peter and again fourteen years later Paul went by revelation to check his teaching with Apostles’ Fellowship, lest he himself was teaching another gospel.

Yes, when he went to check it out with those who were apostles before him, he got disappointed because they didn’t have anything to contribute to his gospel. That’s why he decided to cause a havoc in Jerusalem preaching all over that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. Within 15 days only the local Jews were on an uproar after him. It was then that the Nazarenes got him down to Caesarea and from there to Tarsus where he belonged. (Acts 9:29-31) After 14 years, when he returned to Jerusalem, James and the Elders, afraid that the same thing could happen, suggested that he took advantage of four Jews who had to fulfill a vow in the Temple, and camouflage himself so that the local Jews could see that he also observed the Law. But since God is not to mock, some Asiatic Jews recongnized him and arrested him right there in the Temple. (Acts 21:21-27)

JL: Gal2:9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.

That’s not what happened. They wanted Paul out of Israel sooner the better, affraid that he could make trouble for them again. So, they decided to leave Paul alone and stop trying to recover the synagogues that Paul had robbed the Nazarenes of. So, they sent letters to those Nazarenes who wanted to follow Paul, at least to observe the Noahite laws. It means that they gave up the fight against Paul by reverting their converts to their prior condition of Gentiles.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Too much of the language of the New Testament goes against your logic. Yes, Jesus did not want to die. Who does? But as John’s gospel especially has it, he was willing to let it happen to save his friends. The fact that even Peter who actually fought for him was left alone says a lot. The seizing of Jesus was an act of political decapitation. No one in authority had any fear of his followers, because none was a man of real substance. They must have been as surprised as heck by Peter’s emergence as a leader. Who knew that Jesus had chosen the Twelve to be the leaders of Israel and indeed all the nations?

**RobbyS, for heaven’s sake, what are you talking about? Jesus chose the Twelve to be the leaders of Israel! You guys have no bounds to how much you can dare. And you don’t even bother explaining the sense of that leadership.

Finally, you acknowledge that Jesus did not want to die. I hope from now on that I won’t hear that he was willing to die. And willing to let it happen to save his friends, what could he do? The order was from the Roman authorities to arrest only the head of the group, according to their policy. That’s exactly how I understand your expression of political decapitation. The head had to go so that the disciples would disperse.**

 

[Spirithound]

**How could the Patriarch of Judaism not be Jewish? According to our tradition, Abraham was the first Jew, so to speak, because the formal etimology became actual with the return of the Jews from Babylon.

As a matter of fact, it was not unusual to sacrifice one’s firstborn, but Abraham would never do that. That’s one of the rasons why he left his Country and came to Canaan, and just happened that happened to meet the same practices throughout. But he would never adopt such practices.**

He didn’t know what it meant to be Jewish. The Law was given to Moses, many years after.

How do you know Abraham wouldn’t have sacrificed his son? It’s right there in Genesis. It was not unusual to sacrifice one’s firstborn, and Abraham hadn’t yet received any revelation to make him believe that God, who asked for the sacrifice, wasn’t completely and totally seriously expecting the sacrifice of his son.

 

[Spirithound]

Because he knew that they had come only for him and not for the whole group, according to the Roman policy. That’s why the disciples dispersed.

But if Jesus was so much against being crucified, why didn’t he do more to stop it? Why would he arrange his disciples behind him, being pretty effective in restraining them from defending him by force?

 

[cheeto1]

cheeto1;5246795:

Ben Masada;5245545:

**I confess I got sometimes moved to see the size of faith of women embracing the actual spot where Jesus laid and crying non-stop. I would repeat going inside but just to see how emotions can be stormed as a result of faith that can move mountains. **

I will probably never see Jerusalem in my lifetime…you are kind to share what it is
really like there. I too, am moved to see faith. I believe in the real heaven. However,
it is you who are acting correctly. You are correct to use your effort to make heaven
come on this earth, it is the will of God that we act now. Bascially, we are called to
love. Love does no injury to the neighbor. Corinthians 13 tells us what love is like.
I think you’re doing real good on the “patient” part.

You have a relationship with Jesus right now. You think He is dead, but He is alive.
He is helping you, guiding you, He only, knows what you need next. May you be
blessed for your kindness…

 

[Ben_Masada]

He didn’t know what it meant to be Jewish. The Law was given to Moses, many years after.

How do you know Abraham wouldn’t have sacrificed his son? It’s right there in Genesis. It was not unusual to sacrifice one’s firstborn, and Abraham hadn’t yet received any revelation to make him believe that God, who asked for the sacrifice, wasn’t completely and totally seriously expecting the sacrifice of his son.

**One of the reasons why he left his folks is because he had been revealed about the absolute unity and incorporeality of God. That’s pretty Jewish to me.

I know that Abraham would have never sacrificed his son because he was not a pagan and because he got a revelation from God in a vision that with Israel the demonstration of love to God was to be different. What it’s right there in Genesis is the vision he had for that Divine revelation. And in a vision everything is possible even to see God and live.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

But if Jesus was so much against being crucified, why didn’t he do more to stop it? Why would he arrange his disciples behind him, being pretty effective in restraining them from defending him by force?

Again, Jesus was aware of the Roman policy to crucify only the head of any subversive group. His disciples and himself were not enough to put up a fight. Since he realized he was lost anyways, why would he endanger the disciples and end up by everyone being crucified? That’s just a matter of commonsense, which Jesus had by a lot.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5249588:

cheeto1;5246795:

I will probably never see Jerusalem in my lifetime…you are kind to share what it is
really like there. I too, am moved to see faith. I believe in the real heaven. However,
it is you who are acting correctly. You are correct to use your effort to make heaven
come on this earth, it is the will of God that we act now. Bascially, we are called to
love. Love does no injury to the neighbor. Corinthians 13 tells us what love is like.
I think you’re doing real good on the “patient” part.

You have a relationship with Jesus right now. You think He is dead, but He is alive.
He is helping you, guiding you, He only, knows what you need next. May you be
blessed for your kindness…

Thanks Cheeto for such magnanimous words. God bless you too with a special blessing from Yerushalaim.

 

[Spirithound]

**One of the reasons why he left his folks is because he had been revealed about the absolute unity and incorporeality of God. That’s pretty Jewish to me.

I know that Abraham would have never sacrificed his son because he was not a pagan and because he got a revelation from God in a vision that with Israel the demonstration of love to God was to be different. What it’s right there in Genesis is the vision he had for that Divine revelation. And in a vision everything is possible even to see God and live.**

Sure, it is “pretty Jewish”. But it’s a far leap from “God is One and Incorporeal” to “God forbids human sacrifice”.

 

[Spirithound]

Again, Jesus was aware of the Roman policy to crucify only the head of any subversive group. His disciples and himself were not enough to put up a fight. Since he realized he was lost anyways, why would he endanger the disciples and end up by everyone being crucified? That’s just a matter of commonsense, which Jesus had by a lot.

So why even go to the Garden of Gethsemane? Jesus did a strange thing in arranging his disciples in that manner, didn’t he? Surely a man who did not want to die would have taken more steps to preserve himself, right?

 

[Ben_Masada]

So why even go to the Garden of Gethsemane? Jesus did a strange thing in arranging his disciples in that manner, didn’t he? Surely a man who did not want to die would have taken more steps to preserve himself, right?

As you know, the Gethsemane was his favorite place for a retirement to pray. I am sure that as a result of his anxiety, he went to the Garden of Gethsemane for a more propitious environment to try to make God change His mind and send a legion of angels to fight for him.

 

[Spirithound]

As you know, the Gethsemane was his favorite place for a retirement to pray. I am sure that as a result of his anxiety, he went to the Garden of Gethsemane for a more propitious environment to try to make God change His mind and send a legion of angels to fight for him.

What was God’s purpose in willing that Jesus be crucified? (As best you can guess)

 

[Ben_Masada]

What was God’s purpose in willing that Jesus be crucified? (As best you can guess)

**No more no less than His purpose was in letting the other thousands of Jews who were crucified just like Jesus, according to Flavius Josephus. **

 

[Spirithound]

**No more no less than His purpose was in letting the other thousands of Jews who were crucified just like Jesus, according to Flavius Josephus. **

But Jesus clearly thought there was some better reason, otherwise he would have fled, wouldn’t he?

 

[Ben_Masada]

But Jesus clearly thought there was some better reason, otherwise he would have fled, wouldn’t he?

Really! What better reason would you have to die yourself? No one must have a good reason to die, but to live, there are thousands. Jesus had all reasons to live, and not a single one to die

 

[ryanoneil]

Jesus had all reasons to live, and not a single one to die

Sure he did. He died in order to rise from and overcome death. After which he would rule forever.

For a child is born to us, a son is given us; upon his shoulder dominion rests. They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace. His dominion is vast and forever peaceful, From David’s throne, and over his kingdom, which he confirms and sustains By judgment and justice, both now and forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this! (Isa 9:5-6)

**Come to me heedfully, listen, that you may have life. I will renew with you the everlasting covenant, the benefits assured to David. (Isa 55:3)

As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:32-33)**

 

[Spirithound]

Really! What better reason would you have to die yourself? No one must have a good reason to die, but to live, there are thousands. Jesus had all reasons to live, and not a single one to die

So then he must have been an idiot? For not fleeing?

 

[Ben_Masada]

So then he must have been an idiot? For not fleeing?

That’s your conclusion; not mine.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Sure he did. He died in order to rise from and overcome death. After which he would rule forever.

Jesus would not contradict the Scriptures by expecting to resurrect.

For a child is born to us, a son is given us; upon his shoulder dominion rests. They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace. His dominion is vast and forever peaceful, From David’s throne, and over his kingdom, which he confirms and sustains By judgment and justice, both now and forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this! (Isa 9:5-6)

Now, open your Bible on Psalms 78:67-69 and see how the Almighty confirmed Judah, when He rejected Israel. It was based on His promise to David in I Kings 11:36, that Judah would remain forever as a lamp in Jerusalem.

Come to me heedfully, listen, that you may have life. I will renew with you the everlasting covenant, the benefits assured to David. (Isa 55:3)

Jeremiah has made it very clear that the New Covenant is with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one. (Jer. 31:31-34) You are talking about Christianity, which has nothing to do with those houses.

As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

**And this is confirmed by Jeremiah 31:35-37, when he refers to Israel who will never cease as a people before the Lord forever, in spite of the natural laws. **

He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:32-33)

All along the book of Daniel, Israel is mentioned alongside the expression “Children of the Most High” by name so that we don’t have to assume that it could be Jesus or any Jew on an individual basis.