History Repeats Itself

[Ben_Masada]

If you’re going to play fast and loose with the Scriptures, you may as well go and write your own Bible. And why stop with the New Testament? Go the whole hog and write your own Old Testament as well, and change the details to suit yourself.

**That’s not the point. I am only defending Judaism whose image you Christians distort in the eyes of the world, by using one of ours to introduce Hellenistic innovations into it.

You cannot just invade another’s religious Faith and dress a religious Jew with the clothes of a Greek demigod. That’s my way to let you know that there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.

What you are doing is to make of our God as if He were Zeus, Mary as if she were Afrodite and Jesus as if he were Apollos. It doesn’t go that way. If Jesus ever returned, he would be scandalized with what you have done to him. **

 

[twb1621]

**"…he does not think!" I am sure Jesus was not the Messiah. For 33 years of his life he was part of Messiah. That’s all. The Messiah, according to Isaiah the Prophet, is collective in Israel, the People. If you believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, all you have to do is to see how Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that you don’t have to assume that he was Jesus. Read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. **

**I give Jesus much more credit than you do by acknowledging him for what he really was and not for what you claim he was not. What you guys tell about Jesus is character assassination. So much so that it has become hard to distinguish if Jesus was Jewish or Greek. **

There are an increasing number of those from the Jewish Faith honest enough to acknowledge a great deal regarding the Messiah, Jesus.

all the first followers of Jesus were Jews. In fact, the rabbis of that time period and afterwards were well aware of the many Messianic prophecies which Christians claimed were fulfilled in Jesus. So for instance, although the Talmudic rabbis concurred that Isaiah 53 was a prediction of the Messiah, by medieval times the pressure from those who applied this prophecy to Jesus was so great that Rashi, that greatest medieval Biblical scholar, reinterpreted the chapter and said it referred to the nation of Israel. This interpretation is maintained today by many Jewish scholars, though it only dates back to the Middle Ages.

What, then, are some of the credentials of the Messiah? Only a few can be listed below; there are many others. All of these passages were recognized by the early rabbis as referring to the Messiah:

• Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:1
• Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10
• Messiah would present himself by riding on an ***: Zechariah 9:9
• Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
• Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27
• Messiah’s life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man’s tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12

In detail as to lineage, birthplace, time, and lifestyle, Jesus matched the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew Scriptures. The record of this fulfillment is to be found in the pages of the New Testament. But several other factors combine to further substantiate the Messiahship of Jesus.
In the first place, he claimed to be the Messiah! When a woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming.” he replied, "I who speak to you am he."1 Naturally, that doesn’t prove anything one way or the other. But if Jesus had never made the claim to be the Messiah, why would we bother to try and prove that he was? His own claim lays the groundwork for the rest of the evidence.
Also, Jesus’ life is in sharp contrast to that of the false Messiahs, and it is a positive demonstration of what we would expect the Messiah to do. Thus, Jesus worked many miracles of healing, bringing wholeness into people’s lives, forgiving sin and restoring relationships. In contrast with Shabbetai Zevi, for instance, Jesus carried out the Law of Moses as a devout Jew. And in contrast with Bar Kochba, although Jesus also died, he was resurrected!
The resurrection is a third piece of additional evidence, and it is perhaps the most convincing vindication of Jesus’ claims. It is interesting that an Israeli scholar, Pinchas Lapide, has written a book which has attracted no small amount of attention in the Jewish community. The reason is that Lapide has said that the resurrection of Jesus is well within the realm of possibility. After all, he reasoned, the Hebrew Scriptures give a number of accounts of people coming back to life. Why not Jesus as well? Regrettably, Lapide fails to note that the resurrection of Jesus is described in terms that go far beyond the resucitations of the other stories; and, he fails to come to grips with the fact that Jesus predicted his own resurrection, which vindicated his claims to Messiahship.
An assortment of explanations has been offered throughout history to explain away the resurrection as either non-historical (“It never happened.”) or as non-supernatural (“Here’s how it happened.”). But these explanations have not been successful. Run down the possibilities for yourself and see which makes the best sense. Did the Roman authorities steal the body of Jesus from the tomb? Then why didn’t they produce it when the word started being spread that Jesus was risen? Or maybe the disciples stole it. But could such a fabrication on their part account for the change in their attitude? Three days earlier they were disillusioned, defeated idealists who had hoped that Jesus would bring in a new world order; could a lie which they knew to be a lie, now account for their hope, their boldness in the face of official persecution, and for the high ethical standards they set?

continued…

 

[twb1621]

Continued from previous post;

Or perhaps Jesus never died: he just fainted on the cross and revived in the tomb. This idea was popularized in the book The Passover Plot by Hugh Schonfield. Unfortunately the author overlooked the fact that the Romans pierced Jesus’ side, which would have most certainly killed him. Also, there was a contingent of Roman soldiers guarding the tomb as well as a huge stone that blocked its entrance. There was no way that a resuscitated Jesus could have escaped and then convinced hundreds of skeptical eyewitnesses that he had conquered death forever! Or was it all a mass hallucination? It must have been quite a hallucination to be seen by vastly different kinds of people at different times of day in many different places. You might be able to fool one person, but can you fool five hundred who saw him at one time? And unlike the pattern of hallucinations, these appearances of the resurrected Jesus stopped as suddenly as they started, forty days after the resurrection took place.
The only satisfactory explanation is that the resurrection actually occurred, just as the record says. And if that’s the case, it’s a solid reason for accepting the Messiahship of Jesus.
Finally, Jesus transforms people’s lives. Because he provides atonement for sin and reconciliation with God, Jesus brings peace, joy, and purpose into people’s lives. Apart from faith in him, there is no basis for true peace or direction, for as the psalmist says, “Man is estranged from the womb.” That this estrangement is healed by the reconciling ministry of Jesus is the common experience of those who believe in him.
So, between the objective evidence of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and the subjective verification in our own lives–we think there’s ample evidence that Jesus was who he claimed to be!

Source; Jews for Jesus
continued at… jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus/proofessay

 

[Bob_Crowley]

**That’s not the point. I am only defending Judaism whose image you Christians distort in the eyes of the world, by using one of ours to introduce Hellenistic innovations into it.

You cannot just invade another’s religious Faith and dress a religious Jew with the clothes of a Greek demigod. That’s my way to let you know that there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.

What you are doing is to make of our God as if He were Zeus, Mary as if she were Afrodite and Jesus as if he were Apollos. It doesn’t go that way. If Jesus ever returned, he would be scandalized with what you have done to him. **

Then you explain the relevance of the following quotes from your own Jewish tradition in relation to the 40 years after Christ’s death, when the Temple was destroyed.

“Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open” (Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157).

“Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves” (Soncino version, Yoma 39b).

 

[Ben_Masada]

Then you explain the relevance of the following quotes from your own Jewish tradition in relation to the 40 years after Christ’s death, when the Temple was destroyed.

“Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open” (Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157).

“Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves” (Soncino version, Yoma 39b).

**This is a metaphorical analogy for the approaching end of the status quo, which had become in the minds of the religious leaders like something which had been doomed for destruction. Therefore, anything would be taken as an omen of the approaching fate of the city, as things were seen happening vis-a-vis the Romans.

There is absolutely nothing to do with what happened to Jesus 40 years before, who could be about 70 years old then or even dead already, since nobody had any news of where he had gone after he said goodbye to his disciples and left with his wife and Joseph of Arimathea.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

There are an increasing number of those from the Jewish Faith honest enough to acknowledge a great deal regarding the Messiah, Jesus.

all the first followers of Jesus were Jews. In fact, the rabbis of that time period and afterwards were well aware of the many Messianic prophecies which Christians claimed were fulfilled in Jesus. So for instance, although the Talmudic rabbis concurred that Isaiah 53 was a prediction of the Messiah, by medieval times the pressure from those who applied this prophecy to Jesus was so great that Rashi, that greatest medieval Biblical scholar, reinterpreted the chapter and said it referred to the nation of Israel. This interpretation is maintained today by many Jewish scholars, though it only dates back to the Middle Ages.

What, then, are some of the credentials of the Messiah? Only a few can be listed below; there are many others. All of these passages were recognized by the early rabbis as referring to the Messiah:

• Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:1
• Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10
• Messiah would present himself by riding on an ***: Zechariah 9:9
• Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
• Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27
• Messiah’s life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man’s tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12

In detail as to lineage, birthplace, time, and lifestyle, Jesus matched the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew Scriptures. The record of this fulfillment is to be found in the pages of the New Testament. But several other factors combine to further substantiate the Messiahship of Jesus.
In the first place, he claimed to be the Messiah! When a woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming.” he replied, "I who speak to you am he."1 Naturally, that doesn’t prove anything one way or the other. But if Jesus had never made the claim to be the Messiah, why would we bother to try and prove that he was? His own claim lays the groundwork for the rest of the evidence.
Also, Jesus’ life is in sharp contrast to that of the false Messiahs, and it is a positive demonstration of what we would expect the Messiah to do. Thus, Jesus worked many miracles of healing, bringing wholeness into people’s lives, forgiving sin and restoring relationships. In contrast with Shabbetai Zevi, for instance, Jesus carried out the Law of Moses as a devout Jew. And in contrast with Bar Kochba, although Jesus also died, he was resurrected!
The resurrection is a third piece of additional evidence, and it is perhaps the most convincing vindication of Jesus’ claims. It is interesting that an Israeli scholar, Pinchas Lapide, has written a book which has attracted no small amount of attention in the Jewish community. The reason is that Lapide has said that the resurrection of Jesus is well within the realm of possibility. After all, he reasoned, the Hebrew Scriptures give a number of accounts of people coming back to life. Why not Jesus as well? Regrettably, Lapide fails to note that the resurrection of Jesus is described in terms that go far beyond the resucitations of the other stories; and, he fails to come to grips with the fact that Jesus predicted his own resurrection, which vindicated his claims to Messiahship.
An assortment of explanations has been offered throughout history to explain away the resurrection as either non-historical (“It never happened.”) or as non-supernatural (“Here’s how it happened.”). But these explanations have not been successful. Run down the possibilities for yourself and see which makes the best sense. Did the Roman authorities steal the body of Jesus from the tomb? Then why didn’t they produce it when the word started being spread that Jesus was risen? Or maybe the disciples stole it. But could such a fabrication on their part account for the change in their attitude? Three days earlier they were disillusioned, defeated idealists who had hoped that Jesus would bring in a new world order; could a lie which they knew to be a lie, now account for their hope, their boldness in the face of official persecution, and for the high ethical standards they set?

continued…

**A prophecy in the Tanach to be applied to Jesus as an evidence of his Messiahship had to be personal. I mean, something which could be applied to him only on a personal basis without being in common to any other. The list above, for example, can be applied to many others; not only to Jesus. Therefore, he was not the Messiah. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Continued from previous post;

Or perhaps Jesus never died: he just fainted on the cross and revived in the tomb. This idea was popularized in the book The Passover Plot by Hugh Schonfield.

Perhaps that’s exactly what happened. As Jesus said his final goodbye and left, never of these three peoples were heard again: Jesus, Mary Magdalene and Joseph of Arimathea. I wonder about this coincidence.

Unfortunately the author overlooked the fact that the Romans pierced Jesus’ side, which would have most certainly killed him.

We all know that to piece a crucified side of his body was not a Roman custom. It could have been an interpolation to coincide with a prophecy in the Tanach.

Also, there was a contingent of Roman soldiers guarding the tomb as well as a huge stone that blocked its entrance.

Your falacy is so transparent that you can’t even think that at the end of that Sabbath some women brought some perfumed oils and went to anoint Jesus’ body at the tomb. How could they break the seal to the stone and pass through the guards in there to prevent the approach of any suspect? (Mark 16:1) The name is "contradiction."

There was no way that a resuscitated Jesus could have escaped and then convinced hundreds of skeptical eyewitnesses that he had conquered death forever!

No, because he had been taken out of that tomb in the first hours of that Friday, and obviously by Joseph of Arimathea, who had realized he was still alive when he took him off the cross.

Or was it all a mass hallucination? It must have been quite a hallucination to be seen by vastly different kinds of people at different times of day in many different places.

Who said so, the Gentiles who wrote the gospels 50+ years after the alleged facts? You must be kidding!

You might be able to fool one person, but can you fool five hundred who saw him at one time?

Who said so, Paul, a man who had been caught lying before? Sorry, no credibility.

And unlike the pattern of hallucinations, these appearances of the resurrected Jesus stopped as suddenly as they started, forty days after the resurrection took place.

**Read what Luke says in Acts 1:1-3. When Jesus started appearing to his disciples, it was with convincing proofs that he was alive after his sufferings or passion.
After his suffering or passion is no evidence that he had died, much less that he had resurrected. Then, after 40 days he said goodbye and left, no one ever heard of him anymore. **

The only satisfactory explanation is that the resurrection actually occurred, just as the record says. And if that’s the case, it’s a solid reason for accepting the Messiahship of Jesus.

By faith, you should have added above, because there was no eyewitness of the resurrection. To see a man alive after he was thought to have died is not proof that he resurrected.

Finally, Jesus transforms people’s lives. Because he provides atonement for sin and reconciliation with God, Jesus brings peace, joy, and purpose into people’s lives.

How about the transformed lives when one convert from Christianity to another religion? Many a year convert to Judaism and have their lives transformed. How do you explain that?

Apart from faith in him, there is no basis for true peace or direction, for as the psalmist says, “Man is estranged from the womb.” That this estrangement is healed by the reconciling ministry of Jesus is the common experience of those who believe in him.

This is Pauline rhetoric.

So, between the objective evidence of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and the subjective verification in our own lives–we think there’s ample evidence that Jesus was who he claimed to be!

I don’t think so. They are rather evidences of what Christians claim Jesus was. Jesus himself never claimed to be the Messiah, son of God, or that he ever resurrected.

 

[twb1621]

twb1621;5395864:

Continued from previous post;

Or perhaps Jesus never died: he just fainted on the cross and revived in the tomb. This idea was popularized in the book The Passover Plot by Hugh Schonfield.

Perhaps that’s exactly what happened. As Jesus said his final goodbye and left, never of these three peoples were heard again: Jesus, Mary Magdalene and Joseph of Arimathea. I wonder about this coincidence.

Unfortunately the author overlooked the fact that the Romans pierced Jesus’ side, which would have most certainly killed him.

We all know that to piece a crucified side of his body was not a Roman custom. It could have been an interpolation to coincide with a prophecy in the Tanach.

Also, there was a contingent of Roman soldiers guarding the tomb as well as a huge stone that blocked its entrance.

Your falacy is so transparent that you can’t even think that at the end of that Sabbath some women brought some perfumed oils and went to anoint Jesus’ body at the tomb. How could they break the seal to the stone and pass through the guards in there to prevent the approach of any suspect? (Mark 16:1) The name is "contradiction."

There was no way that a resuscitated Jesus could have escaped and then convinced hundreds of skeptical eyewitnesses that he had conquered death forever!

No, because he had been taken out of that tomb in the first hours of that Friday, and obviously by Joseph of Arimathea, who had realized he was still alive when he took him off the cross.

Or was it all a mass hallucination? It must have been quite a hallucination to be seen by vastly different kinds of people at different times of day in many different places.

Who said so, the Gentiles who wrote the gospels 50+ years after the alleged facts? You must be kidding!

You might be able to fool one person, but can you fool five hundred who saw him at one time?

Who said so, Paul, a man who had been caught lying before? Sorry, no credibility.

And unlike the pattern of hallucinations, these appearances of the resurrected Jesus stopped as suddenly as they started, forty days after the resurrection took place.

Read what Luke says in Acts 1:1-3. When Jesus started appearing to his disciples, it was with convincing proofs that he was alive after his sufferings or passion.
**After his suffering or passion is no evidence that he had died, much less that he had resurrected. Then, after 40 days he said goodbye and left, no one ever heard of him anymore. **

The only satisfactory explanation is that the resurrection actually occurred, just as the record says. And if that’s the case, it’s a solid reason for accepting the Messiahship of Jesus.

By faith, you should have added above, because there was no eyewitness of the resurrection. To see a man alive after he was thought to have died is not proof that he resurrected.

Finally, Jesus transforms people’s lives. Because he provides atonement for sin and reconciliation with God, Jesus brings peace, joy, and purpose into people’s lives.

How about the transformed lives when one convert from Christianity to another religion? Many a year convert to Judaism and have their lives transformed. How do you explain that?

Apart from faith in him, there is no basis for true peace or direction, for as the psalmist says, “Man is estranged from the womb.” That this estrangement is healed by the reconciling ministry of Jesus is the common experience of those who believe in him.

This is Pauline rhetoric.

So, between the objective evidence of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and the subjective verification in our own lives–we think there’s ample evidence that Jesus was who he claimed to be!

I don’t think so. They are rather evidences of what Christians claim Jesus was. Jesus himself never claimed to be the Messiah, son of God, or that he ever resurrected.

It is amazing how you can refute others who mow proclaim to be “Jews for Jesus” with the very lame and unsupported claims they use to raise until they learned the truth of what they were speaking about. but now As before, you have shown your own lack of faith in your ancestry’s heritage and as I have said before in other threads to you, one cannot expect you to accept Christianity when you deny your own religious heritage. Now in this case, you offer as rebuttal the same position as has been refuted by those of the Jewish faith.
My question is, where is the evidence to substanciate your opinions unless you were there to witness your claims and just how did you ever find the path that so independently leads you to the beliefs you seem to have “generated” ? You seem to maintain loyalty only to your own opinions…

 

[twb1621]

Continued from previous post;

Ben; "Perhaps that’s exactly what happened. As Jesus said his final goodbye and left, never of these three peoples were heard again: Jesus, Mary Magdalene and Joseph of Arimathea. I wonder about this coincidence."

Lets go over this Ben;

Jesus you are aware of… He will be the judge of all including you and I one day regardless …

Mary Magdalen;
“The Greek Church maintains that the saint retired to Ephesus with the Blessed Virgin and there died, that her relics were transferred to Constantinople in 886 and are there preserved. Gregory of Tours (De miraculis, I, xxx) supports the statement that she went to Ephesus. However, according to a French tradition (see SAINT LAZARUS OF BETHANY), Mary, Lazarus, and some companions came to Marseilles and converted the whole of Provence. Magdalen is said to have retired to a hill, La Sainte-Baume, near by, where she gave herself up to a life of penance for thirty years.”

References available at; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09761a.htm

Joseph risked His life even to offer to bury Jesus so your rebuttal is less than reasonable and boarders on ridiculous.

Ben; "We all know that to piece a crucified side of his body was not a Roman custom. It could have been an interpolation to coincide with a prophecy in the Tanach."

I seriously doubt the Romans restricted themselves to only specific methods of assuring they killed someone and I think History substantiates their versatility well.

Your falacy is so transparent that you can’t even think that at the end of that Sabbath some women brought some perfumed oils and went to anoint Jesus’ body at the tomb. How could they break the seal to the stone and pass through the guards in there to prevent the approach of any suspect? (Mark 16:1) The name is "contradiction."

Its not my fallacy, but those of the Jewish faith you claim, who learned and realized the truth. First of all, why couldn’t they? Additionally, Following your principles of presenting unsupported conjecture, I ask how do you know there were not others accompanying her or already there to move the stone and who says the soldiers would have interfered after all that had occurred, as long as they did not remove the body?

Ben; "No, because he had been taken out of that tomb in the first hours of that Friday, and obviously by Joseph of Arimathea, who had realized he was still alive when he took him off the cross."

Now to use your own rebuttal; How could Joseph remove the Body, Ben “…How could they break the seal to the stone and pass through the guards in there to prevent the approach of any suspect?” (Mark 16:1) You are in “contradiction.”

continued…

 

[twb1621]

Continued from previous post

Ben; "Who said so, the Gentiles who wrote the gospels 50+ years after the alleged facts? You must be kidding!"

Do you believe all the writings in the Old Testamant originated from biographies?
Actually, Converted Jews, Gentiles and Roman Historians records said so, Ben. By the way, you never responded before when I asked you how you explain what caused the Apostles to go from hiding for fear of their lives to publicly proclaiming the teachings of Christ knowing full well it would certainly lead to a horrid death for each of them eventually. And why so many faithful who followed Jesus before His crucifixion would remain devoted to a point of being put to death or how the apostles could convince anyone to be their successors when one would be martyred knowing they also stood to be put to death?

Ben; "Who said so, Paul, a man who had been caught lying before? Sorry, no credibility."

With the lack of any support for the rebuttals you offer you should avoid judging “no credibility”. But by all means, provide your evidence of this.

Read what Luke says in Acts 1:1-3. When Jesus started appearing to his disciples, it was with convincing proofs that he was alive after his sufferings or passion.
**After his suffering or passion is no evidence that he had died, much less that he had resurrected. Then, after 40 days he said goodbye and left, no one ever heard of him anymore. **

Read the rest of the Gospels Ben. You will find many statements proclaiming His Death and Resurrection. Actually, you really don’t want to know about that. And again I ask, how you explain what caused the Apostles to go from hiding for fear of their lives to publicly proclaiming the teachings of Christ knowing full well it would certainly lead to a horrid death for each of them eventually. And why so many faithful who followed Jesus before His crucifixion would remain devoted to a point of being put to death or how the apostles could convince anyone to be their successors when one would be martyred knowing they also stood to be put to death?

Ben; "By faith, you should have added above, because there was no eyewitness of the resurrection. To see a man alive after he was thought to have died is not proof that he resurrected."

And again I ask, how you explain what caused the Apostles to go from hiding for fear of their lives to publicly proclaiming the teachings of Christ knowing full well it would certainly lead to a horrid death for each of them eventually. And why so many faithful who followed Jesus before His crucifixion would remain devoted to a point of being put to death or how the apostles could convince anyone to be their successors when one would be martyred knowing they also stood to be put to death? Do you understand what human nature is?

Ben; "How about the transformed lives when one convert from Christianity to another religion? Many a year convert to Judaism and have their lives transformed. How do you explain that?"

Unfortunate. And you really don’t want to compare these things either.

Ben; "this Pauline rhetoric."

And this is a lame response.

Ben; "I don’t think so. They are rather evidences of what Christians claim Jesus was. Jesus himself never claimed to be the Messiah, son of God, or that he ever resurrected."

Actually, all of the above that you responded to are from Jews, not me. Come on now Ben, be real…

 

[twb1621]

And unlike the pattern of hallucinations, these appearances of the resurrected Jesus stopped as suddenly as they started, forty days after the resurrection took place.

Read what Luke says in Acts 1:1-3. When Jesus started appearing to his disciples, it was with convincing proofs that he was alive after his sufferings or passion.
**After his suffering or passion is no evidence that he had died, much less that he had resurrected. **

For your future reference, The “sufferings” or “Passion” of our Lord is and always has been defined as; The sufferings of Our Lord, which culminated in His death upon the cross.
What I find very interesting here Ben is that you have confidence in Luke’s testimony to quote him and use a verse (which you misinterpret ) from his writing in an attempt to claim Jesus was not dead because in this verse Luke did not specifically refer to His death as “death”, yet you do not refer to all of Luke’s teachings where he attests many times to Jesus’ death and resurrection. You look too hard to support your ego and prove yourself “right” to the point of unsubstantiated claims rather than realize your misconceptions and search deeper for the truth as others of your heritage have done. You are tripping over your own feet.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5405508:

It is amazing how you can refute others who mow proclaim to be “Jews for Jesus” with the very lame and unsupported claims they use to raise until they learned the truth of what they were speaking about. but now

As before, you have shown your own lack of faith in your ancestry’s heritage and as I have said before in other threads to you, one cannot expect you to accept Christianity when you deny your own religious heritage. Now in this case, you offer as rebuttal the same position as has been refuted by those of the Jewish faith.
My question is, where is the evidence to substanciate your opinions unless you were there to witness your claims and just how did you ever find the path that so independently leads you to the beliefs you seem to have “generated” ? You seem to maintain loyalty only to your own opinions…

Hey, I am ready and all ears to plea allegiance to your opinions if you can document them in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle as the Word of God. If not, you are only crying wolf to think that you can proselytize without words of knowledge.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Continued from previous post

Actually, all of the above that you responded to are from Jews, not me. Come on now Ben, be real…

Why did you lock your comments in a way that I could not respond? I would like to reply to them, but the way you wrote them, I can’t. Most of them are completely wrong, and I can prove it in the Scriptures.

 

[twb1621]

Why did you lock your comments in a way that I could not respond? I would like to reply to them, but the way you wrote them, I can’t. Most of them are completely wrong, and I can prove it in the Scriptures.

Ben, if you had the support to know I am wrong you would be able to respond. I am not here to insult you or belittle you, but to offer to those who are as ignorant to the Truth in Christianity as I once was, the direction to find the truth. I found with people who initially are only interested in undermining Catholicism they accept nothing but what they can put together themselves and I highly recommend that for those. Frankly, in the process, I care about the Truth and being politically correct is not a concern when it comes to the word of God. The fact is Ben, you could respond with a rebuttal or in support of any comment if you had the credible resources and had performed the honest research. You are the one who is presenting rebuttals based on unfounded summations and opinions. I have to tell you that it was research over the last six years that led to my conversion from the person I was and no matter how much information I or anyone else here provides you , you will not accept it unless you seek it out yourself. All the resources are available on line including Roman History with records of documentation, and I promise you anything worthwhile is worth the effort of seeking it out. If you have questions that can be answered I am sure we here will provide them for you but if you are just seeking to undermine, you will not succeed against the Truth. Present your questions… if you have a rebuttal to something give your support and someone will respond… but if you know you are not interested in hearing anything why bother.

 

[twb1621]

So, between the objective evidence of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and the subjective verification in our own lives–we think there’s ample evidence that Jesus was who he claimed to be!

I don’t think so. They are rather evidences of what Christians claim Jesus was. Jesus himself never claimed to be the Messiah, son of God, or that he ever resurrected.

Ben This is my point… there are several places in Scripture where Jesus proclaimes who He is;

John CH6;
32 So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 17 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst. 36 But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe. 37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to you, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, 38 because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. 39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day." 41 The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,” 42 and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop murmuring 18** among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; 50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”**

**Jesus said, **
**“But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” **
**Jesus answered, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. **And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mat. Ch 16. 15-19)

 

[MarkInOregon]

History Repeats Itself

But let’s see how different Jesus did to prevent History from repeating itself. The text is in Matthew 26:36-39.

Soon after the Last Supper, as he sensed arrest, he took his disciples and fled to a hiding place in the Gethsemani. At the entrance of the Garden, he left eight of the disciples and told them to watch, and took farther inside the other three disciples: Peter, James and John. Perhaps he thought, if there was a fight, at least the second group would have a chance to escape. In another place farther in, he told the three disciples to stay put and watch, while he would go deeper inside to spend some time
in prayer.

Now, I have been wondering how much of these two cases have in common. One thing we can all be certain of: Both men, Jacob and Jesus were going through the same kind of anxieties in fear for their lives. Bear in mind that the parallel between the facts within the cases is astounding. Would it be appropriate to think of the eight disciples at the entrance of the Garden as the facsimile to the maidservants of Jacob with their children? How about the three disciples in the second group meant to represent Leah with her children? And scary of all, Jesus himself for Jacob with Rachel and Joseph? Luke does say that Jesus was indeed so anxious as to sweat even drops of blood. Anyway but… I don’t think either case justifies the measures taken. Both sound too unfair. Any idea out there to set my mind at easy?

Ben

I apologize if someone else already mentioned this, but I think your paraphrase of MT 26:36-39 does not accurately reflect the actual text. Mt 26:36-39 says: 36 “Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, ‘Sit here, while I go younder and pray.’ 37 And taking with him Peter, and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them,‘My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.’ 39 and going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” (RSVCE online)

This text does not imply fleeing to a hiding place with his disciples as Jesus senses arrest. That seems like reading a bias into the text.
He did not tell the 8 to stay at the entrance and watch as you paraphrase it–in both the RSVCE and NAB he simply tell them to sit while he went over there to pray. The text makes no reference as to where in the garden he had them sit. For all we know they could all have been well inside the garden. It simply says they came to a place called Gethsemane. Again I think you are reading in to the passage something that is not there.

If you read on just a little further in the text Mt 26:40-41 it says: “40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, 'So you could not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Does this sound like someone “fleeing and hiding–preparing for a fight”? It sounds like someone going to pray in order to be ready. It sounds more like Jesus took them to keep a holy hour and pray in preparation for the hour that will soon be at hand.

I don’t really see anything in common with the Jacob story that you reference. Jesus is not returning home from a period of flight and exile after having stolen something–to someone who threatened to kill him. I do not see Jesus fleeing and hiding in Matthew and leaving disciples to watch at the gate as a buffer.

Its an interesting idea but I don’t see it as you paraphrased it when I read the text in Matthew.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, if you had the support to know I am wrong you would be able to respond. I am not here to insult you or belittle you, but to offer to those who are as ignorant to the Truth in Christianity as I once was, the direction to find the truth. I found with people who initially are only interested in undermining Catholicism they accept nothing but what they can put together themselves and I highly recommend that for those. Frankly, in the process, I care about the Truth and being politically correct is not a concern when it comes to the word of God. The fact is Ben, you could respond with a rebuttal or in support of any comment if you had the credible resources and had performed the honest research. You are the one who is presenting rebuttals based on unfounded summations and opinions. I have to tell you that it was research over the last six years that led to my conversion from the person I was and no matter how much information I or anyone else here provides you , you will not accept it unless you seek it out yourself. All the resources are available on line including Roman History with records of documentation, and I promise you anything worthwhile is worth the effort of seeking it out. If you have questions that can be answered I am sure we here will provide them for you but if you are just seeking to undermine, you will not succeed against the Truth. Present your questions… if you have a rebuttal to something give your support and someone will respond… but if you know you are not interested in hearing anything why bother.

**Listen TWB, you mention the Truth several times in this post of yours above with the purpose to make the point that if I am interested in it, I should ask the questions. Do you happen to know what is the Truth? If not, let me help you out with Jesus
if I may. Read John 17:17. Jesus said that the Truth is the Word of God.

Do you happen to know where is the Truth to be found? The Psalmist has the answer for you. Read Psalm 147:19,20. “To Israel only gave God His Word and to no other people on earth.” So, what should Gentiles do when they need instruction in the Word of God? The address is Zion, said Isaiah in 2:2,3. “Let us go up to Zion, so that we be instructed in the Word of God.”

Just in case you don’t know yet, I am one of the People of Zion. How can you tell me to ask Catholics for the Truth when the rule should be the other way around? Do you have solid quotations like these I have shown you to justify your position as dispenser of the Truth? I don’t think so.

Besides, Isaiah says in 42:6 that Israel was the one given as light unto the Gentiles and not the other way around. And Jesus, in his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, said,
“You are the light of the world.” (Mat. 5:14) Can you beat that? **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben This is my point… there are several places in Scripture where Jesus proclaimes who He is;

**And this is my point… Jesus was Jewish, and he would not contradict the Scriptures by introducing Hellenistic innovations of Greek Mythology into Judaism. All those claims about Jesus were interpolations either by the Gentiles who wrote the gospels 50+ years after Jesus had been gone or by the Church in the 4th Century when the Fathers of the Church selected the books to enter the Canon of the NT.

You cannot bake your cake and eat it too. I mean, you cannot have a religious Jew and at the same time a demigod in the Hellenistic Greek fashion. It doesn’t go that way. **

 

[twb1621]

**And this is my point… Jesus was Jewish, and he would not contradict the Scriptures by introducing Hellenistic innovations of Greek Mythology into Judaism. All those claims about Jesus were interpolations either by the Gentiles who wrote the gospels 50+ years after Jesus had been gone or by the Church in the 4th Century when the Fathers of the Church selected the books to enter the Canon of the NT. **

**You cannot bake your cake and eat it too. I mean, you cannot have a religious Jew and at the same time a demigod in the Hellenistic Greek fashion. It doesn’t go that way. **

I can’t bake at all, you got me on that one. No offense, but you are standing sternly on the idea that Jesus had to follow the complete traditions, practices and philosophies of the ancient Jewish faith when in fact the Jewish faith was supposed to be based on His word. The Jews themselves didn’t follow it. Now in order to arrive at a reasonable agreement, lets offer support for our positions. There was a reason He came in human form. Do you think He would be bound by man’s limits?
If in fact you had the undisputable interpretations of scripture and Jesus “contradicted” the Word of God, do you not think after 2000 years the Catholic Church would have been exposed and proven a fraud? What do you have to show what you offer is undisputed and Jesus went against the word of God. Or are you confusing the word of man in worship of God as God’s word? It was obvious the Jews were not “performing to standards” shall we say. Let me ask you this. How many versions of the Old Testament were there and in how many languages? Where there differences based on the language written? What is the history of the Septuagint? Who wrote the scrolls and when? Is there a difference between the teachings of Judaism before Jesus was crucified and 72 years after and if so what were the differences? Avoid answering what you can not commit to…

 

[twb1621]

Listen TWB, you mention the Truth several times in this post of yours above with the purpose to make the point that if I am interested in it, I should ask the questions. Do you happen to know what is the Truth? If not, let me help you out with Jesus
**if I may. Read John 17:17. Jesus said that the Truth is the Word of God. **

Must we bicker… My name is Tom as in the signature line and you are welcome to use it, truly. You have already shown that you misinterpret the word of the Gospels. And we all must ask questions to find the right path. You didn’t answer my questions…

**Do you happen to know where is the Truth to be found? The Psalmist has the answer for you. Read Psalm 147:19,20. “To Israel only gave God His Word and to no other people on earth.” So, what should Gentiles do when they need instruction in the Word of God? The address is Zion, said Isaiah in 2:2,3. “Let us go up to Zion, so that we be instructed in the Word of God.” **

**Just in case you don’t know yet, I am one of the People of Zion. How can you tell me to ask Catholics for the Truth when the rule should be the other way around? Do you have solid quotations like these I have shown you to justify your position as dispenser of the Truth? I don’t think so. **

**“To Israel only gave God His Word and to no other people on earth.” **
Did Israel not violate the word of God? Many times? Did Jesus not attempt to provide salvation specifically to Israel many of who refused Him and did He not then open salvation to all men? Your hertiage waits for the messiah who already came. That is where it all goes astray. If wrong, how will you recognize His lineage?

**Then the address for salvation is Jesus no matter where He is and you may be one of the people of Zion but there is a long and recorded history of many saved and condemned from where you stand. **

Besides, Isaiah says in 42:6 that Israel was the one given as light unto the Gentiles and not the other way around. And Jesus, in his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, said,
**“You are the light of the world.” (Mat. 5:14) Can you beat that? **

**I can also present interpretations of the Old Testament in support of Jesus and if you had undisputable support for your allegations Christianity would not be in existence today. The fact is some of your heritage remain denying Jesus and others follow or convert. Obviously you do not have the undisputed interpretations and even more obvious it is a matter of denial Jesus is the Messiah and your choosing to continue waiting. You can not provide support otherwise. **