History Repeats Itself

[Ben_Masada]

I can’t bake at all, you got me on that one. No offense, but you are standing sternly on the idea that Jesus had to follow the complete traditions, practices and philosophies of the ancient Jewish faith when in fact the Jewish faith was supposed to be based on His word.

According to what Jesus himself declared in Matthew 5:19, he came to confirm the laws down to the letter. So, my standing sternly on the idea that Jesus had to follow what he stood for, stands whithout change.

The Jews themselves didn’t follow it. Now in order to arrive at a reasonable agreement, lets offer support for our positions.

Who decided that the Jews didn’t follow it, Paul or his Gentile disciples who wrote the gospels? You are barking at the wrong tree.

There was a reason He came in human form. Do you think He would be bound by man’s limits?

God never came down in human form, but in the visions and dreams of His Prophets. (Numb. 12:6)

If in fact you had the undisputable interpretations of scripture and Jesus “contradicted” the Word of God, do you not think after 2000 years the Catholic Church would have been exposed and proven a fraud?

Has Islam been exposed and proven a fraud? Nevertheless it grows faster and more than the Church. What is that supposed to say, that it has the monopoly of the Truth? I didn’t think so. The same applies to the Catholic Church.

What do you have to show what you offer is undisputed and Jesus went against the word of God.

**Jesus did not go against the Word of God. Those who claim for him what he was not are the ones going against the Word of God. **

Or are you confusing the word of man in worship of God as God’s word?

What is not word of man, the NT? It didn’t even exist at the time Jesus would call the Tanach Word of God.

It was obvious the Jews were not “performing to standards” shall we say.

Based on what, “shall we say” Paul and the gospels? You have got to define what you mean.

Let me ask you this. How many versions of the Old Testament were there and in how many languages? Where there differences based on the language written? What is the history of the Septuagint?

What are you trying to justify? You are not being clear.

Who wrote the scrolls and when? Is there a difference between the teachings of Judaism before Jesus was crucified and 72 years after and if so what were the differences? Avoid answering what you can not commit to…

It doesn’t matter to me who wrote the scrolls and much less when, as long as they were written by Jews for Judaism. The whole of the NT was written by Gentiles against Judaism. Why? Because if they used a religious Jew to build a body of pagan mythologies, I consider this to be against Judaism.

 

[Ben_Masada]

**I can also present interpretations of the Old Testament in support of Jesus and if you had undisputable support for your allegations Christianity would not be in existence today. The fact is some of your heritage remain denying Jesus and others follow or convert. Obviously you do not have the undisputed interpretations and even more obvious it is a matter of denial Jesus is the Messiah and your choosing to continue waiting. You can not provide support otherwise. **

**Okay Tom, let us make a deal. You say you can provide evidences from the Tanach that support Jesus. Some Christians say there are even up to 300 of them. I don’t need 300, neither 30 or even 3. Just one. Present me with one evidence that can be applied to Jesus on a personal basis, which cannot be applied to another Jew, and we are in business. If it makes sense to me, I’ll be big enough to reconsider my views. But if it does not make sense, I’ll be bigger to tell you why.

This that if my “allegations” were undisputable, Christianity would not be in existence today, holds no water. Islam is almost as old and growing faster than the Church; does it mean Muslims have the Truth? I didn’t think so.

I do not deny Jesus. I deny false claims about him. He was a religious Jew after all, and anything about him which is not Jewish, obviously is not true. He was not the Messiah and no one can prove that he was without having to claim faith. And let me tell you, you are mistaken to say I am waiting for the Messiah. The Messiah is not an individual but Israel, the Jewish People. He is back here in Israel for the third Commonwealth, although part of it is still in the Diaspora. But this is not a contradiction because Isaiah has made it very clear that only a small remnant is supposed to return. (Isa. 10:22)

Last but not least, what do you mean, I cannot provide support, that the Messiah is collective in Israel? If you believe in the consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, mind you that Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name so that we won’t have to assume that he could have been Jesus. Read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. **

 

[twb1621]

Okay Tom, let us make a deal. You say you can provide evidences from the Tanach that support Jesus. Some Christians say there are even up to 300 of them. I don’t need 300, neither 30 or even 3. Just one. Present me with one evidence that can be applied to Jesus on a personal basis, which cannot be applied to another Jew, and we are in business. If it makes sense to me, I’ll be big enough to reconsider my views. But if it does not make sense, I’ll be bigger to tell you why.

**This that if my “allegations” were undisputable, Christianity would not be in existence today, holds no water. Islam is almost as old and growing faster than the Church; does it mean Muslims have the Truth? I didn’t think so. **

**I do not deny Jesus. I deny false claims about him. He was a religious Jew after all, and anything about him which is not Jewish, obviously is not true. He was not the Messiah and no one can prove that he was without having to claim faith. And let me tell you, you are mistaken to say I am waiting for the Messiah. The Messiah is not an individual but Israel, the Jewish People. He is back here in Israel for the third Commonwealth, although part of it is still in the Diaspora. But this is not a contradiction because Isaiah has made it very clear that only a small remnant is supposed to return. (Isa. 10:22) **

**Last but not least, what do you mean, I cannot provide support, that the Messiah is collective in Israel? If you believe in the consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, mind you that Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name so that we won’t have to assume that he could have been Jesus. Read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. **

I’ll provide a link to save space if you don’t mind and thanks Ben…

Daniel
Prophecy concerning the time of the coming of the Messiah and his death;
Daniel 9:25 " Know thou therefore, and take notice: that from the going forth of the word, to build up Jerusalem again, unto Christ the prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and the street shall be built again, and the walls in straitness of times. And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his".

**Fulfilled ** Matt 2:1 " When Jesus therefore was born in Bethlehem of Juda, in the days of king Herod"

Explained; A week of years denotes seven years, as Leviticus (25:8) indicates and thus seventy of these weeks would make four hundred and ninety years odd. From the twentieth year of King Artaxexes, when by his commandment, Nehemias rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem (2 Esdras 2). From which time according to the best chronology, there were just 69 weeks of years, which is 483 years, to the beginning of Christ ministry.

For continued information Refer to
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/judaism/messiah.htm

If you don’t mind, also refer to “The Secret Rabbinical Teachings Concerning Christians” at
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/judaism/talmud.htm

 

[twb1621]

Okay Tom, let us make a deal. You say you can provide evidences from the Tanach that support Jesus. Some Christians say there are even up to 300 of them. I don’t need 300, neither 30 or even 3. Just one. Present me with one evidence that can be applied to Jesus on a personal basis, which cannot be applied to another Jew, and we are in business. If it makes sense to me, I’ll be big enough to reconsider my views. But if it does not make sense, I’ll be bigger to tell you why.

**This that if my “allegations” were undisputable, Christianity would not be in existence today, holds no water. Islam is almost as old and growing faster than the Church; does it mean Muslims have the Truth? I didn’t think so. **

**I do not deny Jesus. I deny false claims about him. He was a religious Jew after all, and anything about him which is not Jewish, obviously is not true. He was not the Messiah and no one can prove that he was without having to claim faith. And let me tell you, you are mistaken to say I am waiting for the Messiah. The Messiah is not an individual but Israel, the Jewish People. He is back here in Israel for the third Commonwealth, although part of it is still in the Diaspora. But this is not a contradiction because Isaiah has made it very clear that only a small remnant is supposed to return. (Isa. 10:22) **

**Last but not least, what do you mean, I cannot provide support, that the Messiah is collective in Israel? If you believe in the consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, mind you that Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name so that we won’t have to assume that he could have been Jesus. Read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. **

Added information;

“This wood, again, Isaac the son of Abraham personally carried for his own sacrifice, when God had enjoined that he should be made a victim to Himself. But, because these had been mysteries which were being kept for perfect fulfilment in the times of Christ, Isaac, on the one hand, with his wood, was reserved, the ram being offered which was caught by the horns in the bramble; Christ, on the other hand, in His times, carried His wood on His own shoulders, adhering to the horns of the cross, with a thorny crown encircling His head. For Him it behooved to be made a sacrifice on behalf of all Gentiles, who was led as a sheep for a victim, and, like a lamb voiceless before his shearer, so opened not His mouth (for He, when Pilate interrogated Him, spoke nothing ); for in humility His judgment was taken away: His nativity, moreover, who shall declare? Because no one at all of human beings was conscious of the nativity of Christ at His conception, when as the Virgin Mary was found pregnant by the word of God; and because His life was to be taken from the land. Why, accordingly, after His resurrection from the dead, which was effected on the third day, did the heavens receive Him back? It was in accordance with a prophecy of Hosea, uttered on this wise: Before daybreak shall they arise unto Me, saying, Let us go and return unto the Lord our God, because Himself will draw us out and free us. After a space of two days, on the third day — which is His glorious resurrection— He received back into the heavens (whence withal the Spirit Himself had come to the Virgin ) Him whose nativity and passion alike the Jews have failed to acknowledge. Therefore, since the Jews still contend that the Christ is not yet come, whom we have in so many ways approved to be come, let the Jews recognise their own fate—a fate which they were constantly foretold as destined to incur after the advent of the Christ, on account of the impiety with which they despised and slew Him.”

Excerpt from; newadvent.org/fathers/0308.htm

 

[Ben_Masada]

I’ll provide a link to save space if you don’t mind and thanks Ben…

Daniel Prophecy concerning the time of the coming of the Messiah and his death;
Daniel 9:25 " Know thou therefore, and take notice: that from the going forth of the word, to build up Jerusalem again, unto Christ the prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and the street shall be built again, and the walls in straitness of times. And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his".
A week of years denotes seven years, as Leviticus (25:8) indicates and thus seventy of these weeks would make four hundred and ninety years odd. From the twentieth year of King Artaxexes, when by his commandment, Nehemias rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem (2 Esdras 2). From which time according to the best chronology, there were just 69 weeks of years, which is 483 years, to the beginning of Christ ministry.

**Yes, the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 is indeed concerned the Messiah, but not concerned Jesus. And that prophecy is Jewish and it has to be interpreted Jewishly. Any non-Jewish interpretation of a Jewish prophecy is prone to fail from the onset. I have posted a thread with the Jewish interpretation of that Jewish prophecy. You can read it and see that it does not have anything to do with Jesus.

Therefore, I am going to have to keep waiting for at least one prophetical evidence that points to Jesus, because if you remember what I said, it has to be something that only Jesus fulfilled. You mentioned that he was born in Bethlehem. Yes, and so were thousands of Jews. I want to hear a prophecy that was especially fulfilled only by Jesus to classify him as the Messiah. There is none my friend. I laugh at those who claim 300 and cannot produce a single one.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Added information;

“This wood, again, Isaac the son of Abraham personally carried for his own sacrifice, when God had enjoined that he should be made a victim to Himself. But, because these had been mysteries which were being kept for perfect fulfilment in the times of Christ, Isaac, on the one hand, with his wood, was reserved, the ram being offered which was caught by the horns in the bramble; Christ, on the other hand, in His times, carried His wood on His own shoulders, adhering to the horns of the cross, with a thorny crown encircling His head. For Him it behooved to be made a sacrifice on behalf of all Gentiles, who was led as a sheep for a victim, and, like a lamb voiceless before his shearer, so opened not His mouth (for He, when Pilate interrogated Him, spoke nothing ); for in humility His judgment was taken away: His nativity, moreover, who shall declare? Because no one at all of human beings was conscious of the nativity of Christ at His conception, when as the Virgin Mary was found pregnant by the word of God; and because His life was to be taken from the land. Why, accordingly, after His resurrection from the dead, which was effected on the third day, did the heavens receive Him back? It was in accordance with a prophecy of Hosea, uttered on this wise: Before daybreak shall they arise unto Me, saying, Let us go and return unto the Lord our God, because Himself will draw us out and free us. After a space of two days, on the third day — which is His glorious resurrection— He received back into the heavens (whence withal the Spirit Himself had come to the Virgin ) Him whose nativity and passion alike the Jews have failed to acknowledge. Therefore, since the Jews still contend that the Christ is not yet come, whom we have in so many ways approved to be come, let the Jews recognise their own fate—a fate which they were constantly foretold as destined to incur after the advent of the Christ, on account of the impiety with which they despised and slew Him.”

Excerpt from; newadvent.org/fathers/0308.htm

**If you have not read Josephus, let me tell you that he testifies that the Romans crucified thousands of Jews in the First Century. And it was a Roman policy that those supposed to be crucified had to carry their own crosses to the Calvary. Therefore, if you want to compare Jesus to Isaac who carried the wood for the sacrifice, you have to include all the thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans. So, according to our deal, the Isaac analogy cannot be applied to Jesus on an especial manner as proof for his being the Messiah.

Besides, the Jews did not slay Jesus. The Romans did. Even the late Pope John 23rd asked forgiveness to the Jewish People for this false accusation of 2000 years long. And Jesus did not resurrect after three days and three nights because at the end of that Sabbath, which in Israel is at the sunset, the tomb was empty. (Mark 16:1) It means, I have to keep waiting for a prophetical evidence that Jesus was the Messiah.

Hey! Someone else here to help Twb?**

 

[Danno2281]

** It means, I have to keep waiting for a prophetical evidence that Jesus was the Messiah.

Hey! Someone else here to help Twb?**

From your previous post **:"Yes, the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 is indeed concerned the Messiah, but not concerned Jesus. And that prophecy is Jewish and it has to be **interpreted Jewishly. Any non-Jewish interpretation of a Jewish prophecy is prone to fail from the onset."
You wait for “prophetical evidence” and then deny your interlocutors the ability to provide it! As previously stated, you are an intellectual fraud, Why would you wonder that those who have engaged you will no longer waste their time. You are not “faith seeking understanding”, but apparantly a self-appointed spokesman for nobody but yourself. May the merciful God take pity on you…

 

[twb1621]

**Yes, the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 is indeed concerned the Messiah, but not concerned Jesus. **.

You can debate the matter with your brothers and sisters who know better than what you have been misled with;

Again, more than one and I would be interested in your naming any other who has met all of these prophecies. The following is offered by Jews who studied the theories you claim and found they were distorted to say the least.
“all the first followers of Jesus were Jews. In fact, the rabbis of that time period and afterwards were well aware of the many Messianic prophecies which Christians claimed were fulfilled in Jesus. So for instance, although the Talmudic rabbis concurred that Isaiah 53 was a prediction of the Messiah, by medieval times the pressure from those who applied this prophecy to Jesus was so great that Rashi, that greatest medieval Biblical scholar, reinterpreted the chapter and said it referred to the nation of Israel. This interpretation is maintained today by many Jewish scholars, though it only dates back to the Middle Ages.

What, then, are some of the credentials of the Messiah? Only a few can be listed below; there are many others. All of these passages were recognized by the early rabbis as referring to the Messiah:

• Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:1
• Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10
• Messiah would present himself by riding on an ***: Zechariah 9:9
• Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
• Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27
• Messiah’s life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man’s tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12

In detail as to lineage, birthplace, time, and lifestyle, Jesus matched the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew Scriptures. The record of this fulfillment is to be found in the pages of the New Testament. But several other factors combine to further substantiate the Messiahship of Jesus.
In the first place, he claimed to be the Messiah! When a woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming.” he replied, "I who speak to you am he."1 Naturally, that doesn’t prove anything one way or the other. But if Jesus had never made the claim to be the Messiah, why would we bother to try and prove that he was? His own claim lays the groundwork for the rest of the evidence.
Also, Jesus’ life is in sharp contrast to that of the false Messiahs, and it is a positive demonstration of what we would expect the Messiah to do. Thus, Jesus worked many miracles of healing, bringing wholeness into people’s lives, forgiving sin and restoring relationships. In contrast with Shabbetai Zevi, for instance, Jesus carried out the Law of Moses as a devout Jew. And in contrast with Bar Kochba, although Jesus also died, he was resurrected!
The resurrection is a third piece of additional evidence, and it is perhaps the most convincing vindication of Jesus’ claims. It is interesting that an Israeli scholar, Pinchas Lapide, has written a book which has attracted no small amount of attention in the Jewish community. The reason is that Lapide has said that the resurrection of Jesus is well within the realm of possibility. After all, he reasoned, the Hebrew Scriptures give a number of accounts of people coming back to life. Why not Jesus as well? Regrettably, Lapide fails to note that the resurrection of Jesus is described in terms that go far beyond the resucitations of the other stories; and, he fails to come to grips with the fact that Jesus predicted his own resurrection, which vindicated his claims to Messiahship.”

Continued …

 

[twb1621]

continued from previous…
The Old Testament verses are the prophecy; the New Testament verses proclaim the fulfillment. Check them all out for yourself!
· Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
· A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
· Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)
· Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
· Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
· Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
· Herod´s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
· Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)
· Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
· Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
· Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
· Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
· Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
· Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
· Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
· Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:

1. rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
2. betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
3. sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
4. silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
5. being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
6. beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
7. spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
8. piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
9. being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
10. praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
11. piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
12. given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
13. no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
14. buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
15. casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
    · Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
    · Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
    · Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

 

[twb1621]

**If you have not read Josephus, let me tell you that he testifies that the Romans crucified thousands of Jews in the First Century. And it was a Roman policy that those supposed to be crucified had to carry their own crosses to the Calvary. Therefore, if you want to compare Jesus to Isaac who carried the wood for the sacrifice, you have to include all the thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans. So, according to our deal, the Isaac analogy cannot be applied to Jesus on an especial manner as proof for his being the Messiah. **

It can when you add it all up but you don’t want to have to do that, do you now…

**Besides, the Jews did not slay Jesus. The Romans did. Even the late Pope John 23rd asked forgiveness to the Jewish People for this false accusation of 2000 years long. And Jesus did not resurrect after three days and three nights because at the end of that Sabbath, which in Israel is at the sunset, the tomb was empty. (Mark 16:1) It means, I have to keep waiting for a prophetical evidence that Jesus was the Messiah. **

Hey! Someone else here to help Twb?

Actually, the Jews promoted and insisted on the crucifixion so your argument is wasted. You have a sense of humor after all… Go figure! By the way, don’t worry about me, at least I know I have credible support for what I present. you might want to study from better sources though.

 

[Danno2281]

Actually, the Jews promoted and insisted on the crucifixion so your argument is wasted. You have a sense of humor after all… Go figure! By the way, don’t worry about me, at least I know I have credible support for what I present. you might want to study from better sources though.

Since it happened while you were also posting andit appears last on the previous page, you may not have seen post#165.

 

[twb1621]

Since it happened while you were also posting andit appears last on the previous page, you may not have seen post#165.

RE: 165
you were right on the mark with that one my brother…

 

[Ben_Masada]

From your previous post **:“Yes, the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 is indeed concerned the Messiah, but not concerned Jesus. And that prophecy is Jewish and it has to be ******interpreted Jewishly. Any non-Jewish interpretation of a Jewish prophecy is prone to fail from the onset.”
You wait for “prophetical evidence” and then deny your interlocutors the ability to provide it! As previously stated, you are an intellectual fraud, Why would you wonder that those who have engaged you will no longer waste their time. You are not “faith seeking understanding”, but apparantly a self-appointed spokesman for nobody but yourself. May the merciful God take pity on you…

**And I am right to say that the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 is concerning the Messiah but not Jesus. I have given enough evidences from Isaiah and elsewhere that the Messiah is Israel, the People and not an individual in particular. Therefore, it’s only obvious that I should continue waiting for at least one of the 300 prophecies from the Tanach, that you guys claim point to Jesus. What do you want me to do, to accept whatever nonsense is said without proof? You have forgotten that I have a mind of my own.

You are right only about one thing: Indeed, I am not a faith seeking understanding. I am a Reason seeking understanding. Understanding never comes by faith but by Reason. Faith only blinds people to see the truth. If the faithful of Jim Jones had used their Reason, almost 1000 of them would not have been killed so stupidly.

Now, about being an “Intellectual fraud,” I hope you are aware that this is a personal attack. I could very well answer you in kind, but you would not like it. Then, I would only been proving to be just another of your own kind.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

You can debate the matter with your brothers and sisters who know better than what you have been misled with;

I am all ears to hear from the Scriptures where I have been misled and you are not doing a good job.

Again, more than one and I would be interested in your naming any other who has met all of these prophecies. The following is offered by Jews who studied the theories you claim and found they were distorted to say the least.

You guys are the ones who claim about 300 Messianic prophecies in the Tanach that point to Jesus. So, the burden of proof is on your shoulders not mine.

“all the first followers of Jesus were Jews.

**And they were indeed, but they were not Christians. They were members of the Sect of the Nazarenes, a people who never had anything to do with Christians. **

In fact, the rabbis of that time period and afterwards were well aware of the many Messianic prophecies which Christians claimed were fulfilled in Jesus.

So am I aware of the many Messianic prophecies which Christians still claim were fulfilled in Jesus, but they can’t prove a single one.

So for instance, although the Talmudic rabbis concurred that Isaiah 53 was a prediction of the Messiah, by medieval times the pressure from those who applied this prophecy to Jesus was so great that Rashi, that greatest medieval Biblical scholar, reinterpreted the chapter and said it referred to the nation of Israel. This interpretation is maintained today by many Jewish scholars, though it only dates back to the Middle Ages.

**That Isaiah 53 is a reference to Israel as the Messiah has nothing to do with Talmudic Rabbis or Medieval Biblical Scholars. Isaiah, the Prophet himself shows enough evidence that chapter 53 points to Israel, since the day it was written. **

What, then, are some of the credentials of the Messiah? Only a few can be listed below; there are many others. All of these passages were recognized by the early rabbis as referring to the Messiah:

And they do. I have never said that they don’t. The problem here is that you have Jesus in mind as the Messiah and I have Israel. I can prove my assertion with Isaiah himself, and you can prove yours only in the NT. That’s not the same.

Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: And so were thousands of Jews.

Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: And so were thousands of Jews.

Messiah would present himself by riding on an ***: **This is a metaphorical analogy for the Jews returning from exile in Babylon. **

Messiah would be tortured to death: And so were thousands of Jews by the Romans. Read Josephus.

Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Prove this in the Scriptures.

Messiah’s life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man’s tomb, and resurrection: That’s the description of Israel according to Isaiah 53.

In the first place, he claimed to be the Messiah! When a woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming.” he replied, "I who speak to you am he."1 Naturally, that doesn’t prove anything one way or the other. But if Jesus had never made the claim to be the Messiah, why would we bother to try and prove that he was? His own claim lays the groundwork for the rest of the evidence.

**You would bother because the Pauline claim that Jesus was the Messiah is down in the pages of the NT. That’s why. **

Also, Jesus’ life is in sharp contrast to that of the false Messiahs, and it is a positive demonstration of what we would expect the Messiah to do.

Are you sure? The main role of a Messianic leader is to bring the Messiah back home. Moses did it by bringing Israel back to Canaan. Cyrus did it by proclaiming the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel and financing the rebuilding of the Temple. Herzl did it by inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion. What did Jesus do? With his coming the Messiah was rather expelled unto the four coners of the earth. Even as a Messianic leader he could not classify. Let alone the Messiah himself.

 

[Ben_Masada]

continued from previous…
The Old Testament verses are the prophecy; the New Testament verses proclaim the fulfillment. Check them all out for yourself!
· Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
· A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
· Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)
· Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
· Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
· Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
· Herod´s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
· Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)
· Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
· Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
· Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
· Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
· Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
· Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
· Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
· Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:

1. rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
2. betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
3. sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
4. silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
5. being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
6. beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
7. spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
8. piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
9. being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
10. praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
11. piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
12. given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
13. no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
14. buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
15. casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
    · Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
    · Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
    · Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

You write too much. I cannot start and have no room to finish because of Forum rules. Write five at a time and I promise to give you the answers you need.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Actually, the Jews promoted and insisted on the crucifixion so your argument is wasted. You have a sense of humor after all… Go figure! By the way, don’t worry about me, at least I know I have credible support for what I present. you might want to study from better sources though.

The Scriptures are my source; and so far, you have done nothing to beat that.

 

[Ben_Masada]

RE: 165
you were right on the mark with that one my brother…

I did it. The answer in post # 171.

 

[cheeto1]

**What do you want me to do, to accept whatever nonsense is said without proof? You have forgotten that I have a mind of my own. **

**Faith only blinds people to see the truth. **

The faith is the proof.

 

[Danno2281]

**
Now, about being an “Intellectual fraud,” I hope you are aware that this is a personal attack. I could very well answer you in kind, but you would not like it. Then, I would only been proving to be just another of your own kind.**

Just an observation made evident by the facts, facts that you have consistently provided. You ask for prophecy and then deny, not only that the prophecy rightly fits the role, but that the goyim could ever see a prophecy rightly. That is intellectual dishonesty. If you believe that we cannot speak of “your” prophecies, why are you here? Why are you wasting your time? Or are you merely trying to bring to fruition your own self-fulfilling prophecy that you will know “your” prophecies better than any goyim would be capable of?
You are, very simply, boring

 

[cheeto1]

You are, very simply, boring

Now stop. What has been the fate of those who commit the smallest evil
against God’s chosen people? You will be blessed in doing good to him,
and he will be brought closer to discovering the Son of God. God, only, knows
what he needs next, not you. Whose side are you on? The devil has appointed others to call him names. You have been appointed to love…

Don’t let frustration beat you, and detroy all your good work.
Refresh yourself in that quiet place in your heart, where you can listen and “hear” God…