History Repeats Itself

[Danno2281]

Now stop. What has been the fate of those who commit the smallest evil
against God’s chosen people? You will be blessed in doing good to him,
and he will be brought closer to discovering the Son of God. God, only, knows
what he needs next, not you. Whose side are you on? The devil has appointed others to call him names. You have been appointed to love…

Don’t let frustration beat you, and detroy all your good work.
Refresh yourself in that quiet place in your heart, where you can listen and “hear” God…

WE are God’s chosen people, chosen before time to come to the life offered by His Son. Admonishing the sinner is one of the spiritual act of mercy, and the names are the terms for behavior that he has exhibited. Please get off your high horse.

 

[cheeto1]

WE are God’s chosen people, chosen before time to come to the life offered by His Son. Admonishing the sinner is one of the spiritual act of mercy, and the names are the terms for behavior that he has exhibited. Please get off your high horse.

I don’t know the first thing about horses. But you and others have so much skill with
pointing out scripture that refers to Jesus. Could Jesus Himself have said this many
things on the road to Emmaus? But you can’t open someone’s eyes with this
information, only God can do that. You don’t know what will “click” with someone
else, only God does. You can only do what you can do, and you’ve done a lot.
Yes, we are God’s chosen people also. So now ask Him: what did You choose me
for right now in this moment?

 

[Danno2281]

I don’t know the first thing about horses. But you and others have so much skill with
pointing out scripture that refers to Jesus. Could Jesus Himself have said this many
things on the road to Emmaus? But you can’t open someone’s eyes with this
information, only God can do that. You don’t know what will “click” with someone
else, only God does. You can only do what you can do, and you’ve done a lot.
Yes, we are God’s chosen people also. So now ask Him: what did You choose me
for right now in this moment?

Just a suggestion - why don’t you start at post# 1 and read all that has been said in this thread before you came to it? If you think that Jesus treated His adversaries (and make no mistake - b. Masada is adversarial toward all that is authentically Christian) with only gentleness, you might want to re-read the gospels. And, yes, I have prasyed for him…

 

[Ben_Masada]

Just an observation made evident by the facts, facts that you have consistently provided. You ask for prophecy and then deny, not only that the prophecy rightly fits the role, but that the goyim could ever see a prophecy rightly. That is intellectual dishonesty. If you believe that we cannot speak of “your” prophecies, why are you here? Why are you wasting your time? Or are you merely trying to bring to fruition your own self-fulfilling prophecy that you will know “your” prophecies better than any goyim would be capable of?
You are, very simply, boring

**If there is a prophecy in the NT, I will not venture an interpretation because you could easily refute it. I would be doing so with Jewish preconceived notions. I expect the same of any Christian with regards to Jewish prophecies. Therefore, it’s only obvious that we know better. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

The faith is the proof.

Faith is the proof of what, ignorance? Remember what happened to the faithful of Jim Jones? Their faith led them to death. If they had used their reason to know better about their “miracle worker,” they would have faired better.

 

[twb1621]

twb1621;5441375:

You can debate the matter with your brothers and sisters who know better than what you have been misled with;

I am all ears to hear from the Scriptures where I have been misled and you are not doing a good job.

Again, more than one and I would be interested in your naming any other who has met all of these prophecies. The following is offered by Jews who studied the theories you claim and found they were distorted to say the least.

You guys are the ones who claim about 300 Messianic prophecies in the Tanach that point to Jesus. So, the burden of proof is on your shoulders not mine.

“all the first followers of Jesus were Jews.

**And they were indeed, but they were not Christians. They were members of the Sect of the Nazarenes, a people who never had anything to do with Christians. **

In fact, the rabbis of that time period and afterwards were well aware of the many Messianic prophecies which Christians claimed were fulfilled in Jesus.

So am I aware of the many Messianic prophecies which Christians still claim were fulfilled in Jesus, but they can’t prove a single one.

So for instance, although the Talmudic rabbis concurred that Isaiah 53 was a prediction of the Messiah, by medieval times the pressure from those who applied this prophecy to Jesus was so great that Rashi, that greatest medieval Biblical scholar, reinterpreted the chapter and said it referred to the nation of Israel. This interpretation is maintained today by many Jewish scholars, though it only dates back to the Middle Ages.

**That Isaiah 53 is a reference to Israel as the Messiah has nothing to do with Talmudic Rabbis or Medieval Biblical Scholars. Isaiah, the Prophet himself shows enough evidence that chapter 53 points to Israel, since the day it was written. **

What, then, are some of the credentials of the Messiah? Only a few can be listed below; there are many others. All of these passages were recognized by the early rabbis as referring to the Messiah:

And they do. I have never said that they don’t. The problem here is that you have Jesus in mind as the Messiah and I have Israel. I can prove my assertion with Isaiah himself, and you can prove yours only in the NT. That’s not the same.

Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: And so were thousands of Jews.

Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: And so were thousands of Jews.

Messiah would present himself by riding on an ***: **This is a metaphorical analogy for the Jews returning from exile in Babylon. **

Messiah would be tortured to death: And so were thousands of Jews by the Romans. Read Josephus.

Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Prove this in the Scriptures.

Messiah’s life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man’s tomb, and resurrection: That’s the description of Israel according to Isaiah 53.

In the first place, he claimed to be the Messiah! When a woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming.” he replied, "I who speak to you am he."1 Naturally, that doesn’t prove anything one way or the other. But if Jesus had never made the claim to be the Messiah, why would we bother to try and prove that he was? His own claim lays the groundwork for the rest of the evidence.

**You would bother because the Pauline claim that Jesus was the Messiah is down in the pages of the NT. That’s why. **

Also, Jesus’ life is in sharp contrast to that of the false Messiahs, and it is a positive demonstration of what we would expect the Messiah to do.

Are you sure? The main role of a Messianic leader is to bring the Messiah back home. Moses did it by bringing Israel back to Canaan. Cyrus did it by proclaiming the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel and financing the rebuilding of the Temple. Herzl did it by inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion. What did Jesus do? With his coming the Messiah was rather expelled unto the four coners of the earth. Even as a Messianic leader he could not classify. Let alone the Messiah himself.

Ben, Your wrong. Your fellow Jews here are correct. And truthfully… I like them. They can acknowledge when they have been wrong and stand up to it. So prove you know better than they do with credibility because you sure can’t correctly interpret the Gospel…

And you missed post #168.

 

[twb1621]

You write too much. I cannot start and have no room to finish because of Forum rules. Write five at a time and I promise to give you the answers you need.

I have a better suggestion… quote five at a time. But provide credible support.

 

[cheeto1]

Faith is the proof of what, ignorance? Remember what happened to the faithful of Jim Jones? Their faith led them to death. If they had used their reason to know better about their “miracle worker,” they would have faired better.

Faith is the proof that what you can’t see and reason out is real. One thing I
notice about the faithful of Jim Jones and the like, is that they are interested
in “getting away from it all”. I think there are times when we’d all like to get away
from it all, but that’s not the way of Jesus. He says in today’s readings, “come to
Me and you will find rest.” Not from your circumstances, but for your soul. His
rest makes us live in our world, and make it a better place.

Why do Catholics have so many schools and hospitals? Why do Catholics fight for
marriage and the right to life? Why is the Catholic faith the only one with it’s own
country? You’ve studied the Bible from front to back and back to front again, you’ve received all the scripture possible. Maybe it’s time to study the saints, and see
what faith in Jesus has made people do.

Thank you for all your discussion, and blessings on your journey of faith…

 

[Ben_Masada]

Actually, the Jews promoted and insisted on the crucifixion so your argument is wasted. You have a sense of humor after all… Go figure! By the way, don’t worry about me, at least I know I have credible support for what I present. you might want to study from better sources though.

The NT is my best source. I believe that you agree with me that there is no better source.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5445277:

Ben, Your wrong. Your fellow Jews here are correct. And truthfully… I like them. They can acknowledge when they have been wrong and stand up to it. So prove you know better than they do with credibility because you sure can’t correctly interpret the Gospel…

And you missed post #168.

**The reply to post #168 is in post # 187.

Regarding your saying that my fellow Jews here are correct in spite of myself, they must be “hyphenated Jews” dead for lack of knowledge according to Hosea 4:6.**

 

[twb1621]

The NT is my best source. I believe that you agree with me that there is no better source.

I’m referring to the sources you use to interpret the NT.

To use your reasoning, if only a jew can interpret what is jewish, you are proof that a jew can not interpret what is christian, at least in this case.

 

[twb1621]

The reply to post #168 is in post # 187.

Regarding your saying that my fellow Jews here are correct in spite of myself, they must be “hyphenated Jews” dead for lack of knowledge according to Hosea 4:6.

I would be very interested to see a thread with you trying to defend your beliefs with those of the true Jewish Faith as it has always been respected. Its rather a shame that you turn from that heritage.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I’m referring to the sources you use to interpret the NT.

To use your reasoning, if only a jew can interpret what is jewish, you are proof that a jew can not interpret what is christian, at least in this case.

Yes, to a certain extent you are right; however, you are using a religious Jew to distort our Judaism with Hellenistic innovations. That’s what I am reasoning to defend.

 

[twb1621]

Yes, to a certain extent you are right; however, you are using a religious Jew to distort our Judaism with Hellenistic innovations. That’s what I am reasoning to defend.

Ben you are not defending anything, you have been trying desperately to attack Christianity through this forum in many unrelated threads. Looking at the threads you have been involved in and the arguments you pose, it is obvious you are merely trying to attack the Christian faith with fictitious statements claiming support from your own false interpretations of the Gospel while distorting much of the OT to fit your newfound faith. Even to the point of insulting your Heritage.
Remember this, you were the one who began belittling your forefathers heritage because you belong to the new sect of Judaism and you are one of the saviors. Here is one of your statements:

Ben: “…. Those were Jews with the same slavish mentality of the time when they were slaves in Egypt. When Moses appeared, they thought he was the one, when in reality; Moses was only a Messianic leader with the mission to bring the Messiah back home. We still have of these kinds of Jews today, still waiting for an individual Messiah-hero to establish a kingdom of Jews. All nonsense; as much nonsense as the nonsense to claim that Jesus was the Messiah, when he never claimed to be the one.”

---

right, but your being part of the Messiah group is not nonsense… All the rest of the Old Testament when it speaks of an individual is nonsense also, right?

---

And no, I am not “ … using a religious Jew to distort our Judaism with Hellenistic innovations” as you put it. Those of the Jewish faith I quoted have their own minds and words, I quoted them. In fact, the interpretations of the Old Testament in the bible have been translated and interpreted by several Jewish specialists including the assistance of Rabbi’s but then they would be of that slavish mentality you spoke of I guess. I don’t even know what “your Judaism” is with the way you present your versions of Old and New Testament.

Posts 172 and 173 Ben. Respond with credible support and that means well historically recognized interpretations. You responded with worthless unsupported gibber to #172 and no response to #173. When I said give me a name of one who fulfilled every one of the prophecies as Jesus did, I mean one man who fulfilled every prophecy. Give me respected interpretations and the sources for your obvious changes in the interpretations of the Old Testament and explain to me how the Dead Sea scrolls do not apply to your faith. This is not history repeating itself, but rather history being altered in your case.

 

[twb1621]

I would be very interested to see a thread with you trying to defend your beliefs with those of the true Jewish Faith as it has always been respected. Its rather a shame that you turn from that heritage.

Something I have to ask regarding your claim that you as part of “Isreal” are the savior Ben. Israel referred to the nation. God frequently throughout the Old Testament brought punishment against the nation for its sins and for turning away from Him which is what led to the revolations through prophecies of God sending a savior to bring salvation once and for all to His people who would accept and abide by Him. Israel had been mentioned many times long before David, yet the prophecies specifically proclaim the savior to be of the lineage of David (we wont mention the fact it was to be one individual). Now by you and your associate friends new belief system, this would mean God sent Israel to save itself from itself for its own sinfullness. It would also mean the line of David included everyone in your group including you and any convert. At the very least it would require your new “founder” of your sect to be of the lineage of David if you wanted to claim that. So how do you justify and credibly support “Israel” (you) saving itself from itself and being of the lineage of David among many other revolations from God, and why would God claim to have Irsael be its own “group savior” when they proved and God gave recognition to the fact they refused so many times to remain devoted to His word? How do you justify everyone who believes this new faith of yours (the group" is so devoted they are saved and remain without sin during their and your life, because the savior can never be with sin?

Your belief system is established to eliminate the need for identifying a savior as of the lineage of David because you can not and you fear Christianity. It is nothing more than a deliberate distortion of God’s revealed porclamations and prophecies which I believe you still recognize to some degree as blasphamy.

 

[twb1621]

twb1621;5450667:

The reply to post #168 is in post # 187.

Regarding your saying that my fellow Jews here are correct in spite of myself, they must be “hyphenated Jews” dead for lack of knowledge according to Hosea 4:6.

Something I have to ask regarding your claim that you as part of “Isreal” are the savior Ben. Israel referred to the nation. God frequently throughout the Old Testament brought punishment against the nation for its sins and for turning away from Him which is what led to the revolations through prophecies of God sending a savior to bring salvation once and for all to His people who would accept and abide by Him. Israel had been mentioned many times long before David, yet the prophecies specifically proclaim the savior to be of the lineage of David (we wont mention the fact it was to be one individual). Now by you and your associate friends new belief system, this would mean God sent Israel to save itself from itself for its own sinfullness. It would also mean the line of David included everyone in your group including you and any convert. At the very least it would require your new “founder” of your sect to be of the lineage of David if you wanted to claim that. So how do you justify and credibly support “Israel” (you) saving itself from itself and being of the lineage of David among many other revolations from God, and why would God claim to have Irsael be its own “group savior” when they proved and God gave recognition to the fact they refused so many times to remain devoted to His word? How do you justify everyone who believes this new faith of yours (the group" is so devoted they are saved and remain without sin during their and your life, because the savior can never be with sin?

Your belief system is established to eliminate the need for identifying a savior as of the lineage of David because you can not and you fear Christianity. It is nothing more than a deliberate distortion of God’s revealed porclamations and prophecies which I believe you still recognize to some degree as blasphamy.

 

[twb1621]

**If there is a prophecy in the NT, I will not venture an interpretation because you could easily refute it. I would be doing so with Jewish preconceived notions. I expect the same of any Christian with regards to Jewish prophecies. Therefore, it’s only obvious that we know better. **

Something I have to ask regarding your claim that you as part of “Isreal” are the savior Ben. Israel referred to the nation. God frequently throughout the Old Testament brought punishment against the nation for its sins and for turning away from Him which is what led to the revolations through prophecies of God sending a savior to bring salvation once and for all to His people who would accept and abide by Him. Israel had been mentioned many times long before David, yet the prophecies specifically proclaim the savior to be of the lineage of David (we wont mention the fact it was to be one individual). Now by you and your associate friends new belief system, this would mean God sent Israel to save itself from itself for its own sinfullness. It would also mean the line of David included everyone in your group including you and any convert. At the very least it would require your new “founder” of your sect to be of the lineage of David if you wanted to claim that. So how do you justify and credibly support “Israel” (you) saving itself from itself and being of the lineage of David among many other revolations from God, and why would God claim to have Irsael be its own “group savior” when they proved and God gave recognition to the fact they refused so many times to remain devoted to His word? How do you justify everyone who believes this new faith of yours (the group" is so devoted they are saved and remain without sin during their and your life, because the savior can never be with sin?

Your belief system is established to eliminate the need for identifying a savior as of the lineage of David because you can not and you fear Christianity. It is nothing more than a deliberate distortion of God’s revealed porclamations and prophecies which I believe you still recognize to some degree as blasphamy.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben you are not defending anything, you have been trying desperately to attack Christianity through this forum in many unrelated threads. Looking at the threads you have been involved in and the arguments you pose, it is obvious you are merely trying to attack the Christian faith with fictitious statements claiming support from your own false interpretations of the Gospel while distorting much of the OT to fit your newfound faith. Even to the point of insulting your Heritage. Remember this, you were the one who began belittling your forefathers heritage because you belong to the new sect of Judaism and you are one of the saviors. Here is one of your statements:

The opposite is rather true. Instead of attacking Christianity, I am defending Judaism from the attacks of Christianity. Whenever Christians use a religious Jew to teach Hellenism, that’s an attack against the integrity of the Jewish Faith.

Ben: “…. Those were Jews with the same slavish mentality of the time when they were slaves in Egypt. When Moses appeared, they thought he was the one, when in reality; Moses was only a Messianic leader with the mission to bring the Messiah back home.

Now, you tell me, don’t you find this to be true? Think of 400 years of slavery and what different could have happened?

We still have of these kinds of Jews today, still waiting for an individual Messiah-hero to establish a kingdom of Jews. All nonsense; as much nonsense as the nonsense to claim that Jesus was the Messiah, when he never claimed to be the one.

Habits are hard to break, especially old ones.

Right, but your being part of the Messiah group is not nonsense… All the rest of the Old Testament when it speaks of an individual is nonsense also, right?

Show me one quotation from the Tanach which refers to an individul Messiah which is not a reference to a King or the High Priest.

And no, I am not “ … using a religious Jew to distort our Judaism with Hellenistic innovations” as you put it. Those of the Jewish faith I quoted have their own minds and words, I quoted them. In fact, the interpretations of the Old Testament in the bible have been translated and interpreted by several Jewish specialists including the assistance of Rabbi’s but then they would be of that slavish mentality you spoke of I guess. I don’t even know what “your Judaism” is with the way you present your versions of Old and New Testament.

Mine is called Biblical Judaism.

Posts 172 and 173 Ben. Respond with credible support and that means well historically recognized interpretations. You responded with worthless unsupported gibber to #172 and no response to #173. When I said give me a name of one who fulfilled every one of the prophecies as Jesus did, I mean one man who fulfilled every prophecy.

And I remember to have asked for one single prophecy that Jesus fulfilled on a personal basis that could not be fulfilled by anyone else, and you cannot provide me with.

Give me respected interpretations and the sources for your obvious changes in the interpretations of the Old Testament and explain to me how the Dead Sea scrolls do not apply to your faith. This is not history repeating itself, but rather history being altered in your case.

All my interpretations are quoted in the Scriptures; if you don’t accept them, it’s probably because the Church can’t agree with. And the Dead Sea scrolls confirm my Scriptures. Show me one that does not.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Something I have to ask regarding your claim that you as part of “Isreal” are the savior Ben. Israel referred to the nation. God frequently throughout the Old Testament brought punishment against the nation for its sins and for turning away from Him which is what led to the revolations through prophecies of God sending a savior to bring salvation once and for all to His people who would accept and abide by Him. Israel had been mentioned many times long before David, yet the prophecies specifically proclaim the savior to be of the lineage of David (we wont mention the fact it was to be one individual). Now by you and your associate friends new belief system, this would mean God sent Israel to save itself from itself for its own sinfullness. It would also mean the line of David included everyone in your group including you and any convert. At the very least it would require your new “founder” of your sect to be of the lineage of David if you wanted to claim that. So how do you justify and credibly support “Israel” (you) saving itself from itself and being of the lineage of David among many other revolations from God, and why would God claim to have Irsael be its own “group savior” when they proved and God gave recognition to the fact they refused so many times to remain devoted to His word? How do you justify everyone who believes this new faith of yours (the group" is so devoted they are saved and remain without sin during their and your life, because the savior can never be with sin?

Your belief system is established to eliminate the need for identifying a savior as of the lineage of David because you can not and you fear Christianity. It is nothing more than a deliberate distortion of God’s revealed porclamations and prophecies which I believe you still recognize to some degree as blasphamy.

The right answer for this post of yours is in my thread “Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David.” Check it out.

 

[Danno2281]

All my interpretations are quoted in the Scriptures; if you don’t accept them, it’s probably because the Church can’t agree with. And the Dead Sea scrolls confirm my Scriptures. Show me one that does not.

Just to mention one particularly pertinent one, the Septuagint reads. “They have pierced my hands and my feet,” at verse 16 of Psalm 22. The Masoretic text reads,“Like a lion my hands an my feet.” The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the Septuagint reading in the scroll found at Nahal Hever, (abbreviated 5/6Hev Ps), the only scroll recording that Psalm. There are a multitude of divergences from youir Masoretic text, but you asked for but one. Does it matter to you? I think not. You have chosen your position, and mere facts will not influence you. How sad (and boring).