Hitler and Mortal Sin

[James_2_24]

I know someone who says that, “If you have any doubt that a sin is mortal, then it is not mortal”.

His reasoning is that it cannot be a mortal sin if you doubt that its mortal cause then you don’t have full knowledge of the sin being mortal.

I use this line of reasoning with Hitler, let’s say the man was really twisted and thought he that his eradication of a people whom he saw as subhuman and a nuisance – was something good and he really, truly in his twisted mind didn’t hink he was doing anything wrong. A man like him can go to heaven without commiting a mortal sin in this regard?

I know what you are probably going to say – “how in the world could he not know?!” remember, i’m putting forth the above situation for the sake of argument…

 

[Bennie_P]

I know someone who says that, “If you have any doubt that a sin is mortal, then it is not mortal”.

His reasoning is that it cannot be a mortal sin if you doubt that its mortal cause then you don’t have full knowledge of the sin being mortal.

I use this line of reasoning with Hitler, let’s say the man was really twisted and thought he that his eradication of a people whom he saw as subhuman and a nuisance – was something good and he really, truly in his twisted mind didn’t hink he was doing anything wrong. A man like him can go to heaven without commiting a mortal sin in this regard?

I know what you are probably going to say – “how in the world could he not know?!” remember, i’m putting forth the above situation for the sake of argument…

It is not good to use a actual person in debating sin, for you are asking others to make a judgement on an indiviual’s final destination in which should be left up to God to be the judge. Many, including me, think he was demonically possessed. Which poses another question, did he willingly give up his salvation in exchange for power? and others claim that he suffered from mental illness, so if he was insane is he responsible for his actions? Myself, I cannot make a judgement for I don’t know what happen between him and God during those final hours he spent in the bunker before he supposed to committed suicide. One thing I do believe though, Satan was by his side for many years.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

I know someone who says that, “If you have any doubt that a sin is mortal, then it is not mortal”.

His reasoning is that it cannot be a mortal sin if you doubt that its mortal cause then you don’t have full knowledge of the sin being mortal.

Actually, James, I think you might want to challenge his basic proposition.

It is not true that a doubt as to the gravity of a sin makes it impossible to commit a mortal sin. In fact, quite the opposite is likely – that one who doubts whether or not an action is sinful but acts anyway, is most likely culpable.

It is axiomatic that one must not act with a doubtful conscience (under usual circumstances). If one were unsure about the serious sinful nature of an act, but acts anyway, one would incur culpability (assuming consent of the will, etc).

Although we often say that one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal is “full knowledge” (a term, in fact, used by the CCC), this component was previously spoken of as “sufficient reflection”. This alternative terminology has much to commend it. Some erroneously think that “full knowledge” means complete and utter surety regarding the moral nature of the act. Some even go so far as to speculate that it means a perfection of knowledge – in other words that they must accurately judge the act. But this is not so. Your conscious may be in error and you can still commit a mortal sin, if you are not invincibly ignorant.

“Sufficient reflection” is a somewhat more felicitous phrase. It helps us understand that the consideration must be of the kind that is sufficient to allow one to freely will.

We can see another way the phrase “sufficient reflection” can help us avoid a pitfall: the case of one who erroneously thinks something is seriously sinful when it actually is not. Someone who commits such an act still can sin mortally. “Full knowledge” might lead us to think that they don’t sin mortally because they had imperfect knowledge (thinking something good was actually evil). But “sufficient reflection” helps us understand that they had done enough thinking to act (and in this case they thought it was evil.)

So, the question should be: what did someone know when they acted? Did they think the act was evil? Did they think the act MIGHT be evil? Did they have any (name removed by moderator)ut leading them to think the act might be evil? Those types of things might mean VINCIBLE ignorance, and hence a moral duty to investigate further before acting.

VC

 

[Charitychick]

We can see another way the phrase “sufficient reflection” can help us avoid a pitfall: the case of one who erroneously thinks something is seriously sinful when it actually is not. Someone who commits such an act still can sin mortally. “Full knowledge” might lead us to think that they don’t sin mortally because they had imperfect knowledge (thinking something good was actually evil). But “sufficient reflection” helps us understand that they had done enough thinking to act (and in this case they thought it was evil.)

I am confused. I have been taught that the matter must be objectively grave for a sin to be mortal.

If the matter is not grave, there is no mortal sin despite the perception of the sinner.

Did I misunderstand you?

 

[baltobetsy]

I am confused. I have been taught that the matter must be objectively grave for a sin to be mortal.

If the matter is not grave, there is no mortal sin despite the perception of the sinner.

I have read (wish I could remember which fairly authoritative source it was, but I can’t) that the matter must be objectively grave or thought to be.

Let’s look at it from another angle. Maybe the mortal sin is not the one erroneously thought to be grave, but rather the willingness to commit the act thought to be gravely sinful.

To put it in crude human terms, let’s say I want to harm you, and I think you are allergic to peanuts. I mix up a great batch of my chili with the peanut butter as the secret ingredient and invite you to have some. You eat a nice big bowl of it, and go on to live a healthy life. Turns out I was mistaken about your allergy. If you found out about what I had done, would you not be terribly offended? You see, I intended to harm you, even though you were not actually harmed. That sounds like a relationship-killer to me - just like a mortal sin.

God sees the intent to commit sin, whether or not the action itself is gravely wrong.

Betsy

 

[DanteAlighieri]

I have read (wish I could remember which fairly authoritative source it was, but I can’t) that the matter must be objectively grave or thought to be.

Let’s look at it from another angle. Maybe the mortal sin is not the one erroneously thought to be grave, but rather the willingness to commit the act thought to be gravely sinful.

To put it in crude human terms, let’s say I want to harm you, and I think you are allergic to peanuts. I mix up a great batch of my chili with the peanut butter as the secret ingredient and invite you to have some. You eat a nice big bowl of it, and go on to live a healthy life. Turns out I was mistaken about your allergy. If you found out about what I had done, would you not be terribly offended? You see, I intended to harm you, even though you were not actually harmed. That sounds like a relationship-killer to me - just like a mortal sin.

God sees the intent to commit sin, whether or not the action itself is gravely wrong.

Betsy

I think your analogy is flawed. Being misinformed about what will kill me has asbolutely no bearing on whether you tried to kill me – if you pulled the trigger on an empty gun, thinking it was loaded, you still tried to kill me.

That said, I agree with the point you’re trying to illustrate: that the willingness to sin by choosing a particular act appears to be sinful, even if the act itself was not.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Contarini]

But what about cases where someone actually does something morally good, thinking it is evil? The classic example (admittedly fictional, and produced by an unbeliever with a definite anti-Christian bias) is Huck Finn’s decision to “go to hell” by helping free Jim instead of returning him to his owner. Huck thinks that the moral, Christian thing to do is to send Jim back to slavery. But his reasons for not doing this are moral ones–he cannot bear to betray someone he has come to love. In that case, I would say that Huck’s action was praiseworthy, not sinful.

However, if he had acted to free Jim simply out of spite against Miss Watson, fully accepting her ownership of Jim on an instinctual as well as a rational level, the fact that objectively it was the right thing to do would not save the action from being sinful.

That’s how I parse it, anyway. The key issue is surely motivation. Hitler acted out of malice toward the Jews–the fact that he had a twisted rationale for what he did did not make it OK (though I will grant that he may have been insane).

Ediwn

 

[tvdxer]

I know someone who says that, “If you have any doubt that a sin is mortal, then it is not mortal”.

His reasoning is that it cannot be a mortal sin if you doubt that its mortal cause then you don’t have full knowledge of the sin being mortal.

That’s not what “full knowledge” means.

If one DOUBTS whether a sin is mortal or not, and does it anyway, they commit a mortal sin, by showing themselves willing to commit one.

Example: Two men are out in the woods hunting. One of the hunters hears something rustling in the bushes, but is not sure whether or not it is an animal or the other hunter. He shoots. He commits a mortal sin by showing himself willing and careless in that regard.

Now, I don’t know whether this applies, in practice, to those suffering from scrupulosity. But for those with “normal” consciences, one must never act in doubt.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Here’s what the Church Teaches as found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

**

1857** For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If one DOUBTS whether a sin is mortal or not, and does it anyway, they commit a mortal sin, by showing themselves willing to commit one.

Example: Two men are out in the woods hunting. One of the hunters hears something rustling in the bushes, but is not sure whether or not it is an animal or the other hunter. He shoots. He commits a mortal sin by showing himself willing and careless in that regard.

Your example does not fit this statement.

But your example is an example of a mortal sin as the individual is showing a lack of care to the safety of others. It has nothing to do with the him knowing or not knowing if a person is making the noise. The only way for it not to be is if he doesn’t have the knowledge that hurting a person in this way is a moral evil.

 

[James_2_24]

Perhaps I should’ve included this example in the initial posting… one example that the person I know uses is this:

“I cannot see how someone who may have lived a holy life all his years would go to hell if – just one day he decided he did not feel like going to Sunday Mass and stayed home… I can’t see how that can negate a lifetime of holiness and be enough to eternally damn someone… what kind of God is that?”

 

[macian]

Perhaps I should’ve included this example in the initial posting… one example that the person I know uses is this:

“I cannot see how someone who may have lived a holy life all his years would go to hell if – just one day he decided he did not feel like going to Sunday Mass and stayed home… I can’t see how that can negate a lifetime of holiness and be enough to eternally damn someone… what kind of God is that?”

Ultimately we cannot know how God will judge any human being. If a man lived a holy life, but committed a mortal sin right before he died, it would be consistent to assume that he would feel sorrow and remorse for his sin if the life he lived had in fact been genuine. If he makes an act of perfect contrition, even if he does not have access to the sacrament of Reconciliation, he can still be reconciled to God.

In any case, an example like that sort of misses the point; to be a Christian is to decide that God is the aim and focus of our lives. It is not like keeping score, where we add points if we do good and take points away when we do evil. If we are always living with the desire to love God and to do His will, then we can put our faith in God to give us the opportunity to reconcile ourselves with Him before we die. “For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace.” (Rom. 6,14) “For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back in fear, but you received a spirit of adoption, through which we cry, ‘Abba, Father!’” (Rom. 8, 14)

If we live as sons and daughters of God, we will not always be worrying about getting too many demerits and getting kicked out of heaven! Instead, we will seek to be perfect out of love for our Father.