Hitler and the churches

[kalt]

The Third Reich was brought up in another post, and it got me thinking about how the different churches responded to the “Final Solution”.

It’s often said that the Catholic Church didn’t do enough. Does anyone know what the other Christian Churches did? What about the other religions?

 

[Cluny]

“It is often said that Catholic Church didn’t do enough” only by those people who are totally ignorant of what the Catholic Church actually did.

Consider this–the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zwolle, was voluntarily baptized in 1947, when there was no political advantage to do so. And in baptism, he took the name Eugenio–the baptismal name of Pope Pius XII. Why would he have done so?

Even the State of Israel said that Pope Pius XII and the Vatican saved more European Jews than all the American Jewish organizations put together did.

For more information about this, read THE MYTH OF HITLER’S POPE by Rabbi David Dalin.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

The Third Reich was brought up in another post, and it got me thinking about how the different churches responded to the “Final Solution”.

It’s often said that the Catholic Church didn’t do enough. Does anyone know what the other Christian Churches did? What about the other religions?

There are other religions?

 

[FightingFat]

This is a great book on the subject–

familypublications.co.uk/detail.cfm?ID=0002100&storeid=1

It looks at the opposition to Nazism from Catholics and other Christians. The focus of the book is principally on Catholic opposition (which was in fact stronger) but he does not ignore the heroic Christians of other Churches who stood up for the truth.

Frain includes a detailed examination of the Concordat, of Mit Brennender Sorge, the currency" and “immorality” trials staged by the Nazis and the propaganda campaign which used them in an attempt to discredit the Church.

There is a rich chapter on individual opposition to Nazism, looking at figures such as Edith Stein and Cardinal Clemens von Galen, as well as those who are less well-known: Alfred Delp SJ, and key protestants who opposed the regime’s injustices.

One of the important sources for the book is “The Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich - Facts and Documents” published by Burns and Oates in 1940 and recently reprinted.

“The Cross and the Third Reich” is an inspiring read. It shows how heroic Catholics and other Christians responded there and then to Nazism as it was growing in Germany as a popular movement, supported by vast crowds and hysterical popular acclaim. It is easy with hindsight to say what people should have done. Far more challenging is to compare their own witness with ours in easier circumstances.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

This is a great book on the subject–

familypublications.co.uk/detail.cfm?ID=0002100&storeid=1

It looks at the opposition to Nazism from Catholics and other Christians. The focus of the book is principally on Catholic opposition (which was in fact stronger) but he does not ignore the heroic Christians of other Churches who stood up for the truth.

Frain includes a detailed examination of the Concordat, of Mit Brennender Sorge, the currency" and “immorality” trials staged by the Nazis and the propaganda campaign which used them in an attempt to discredit the Church.

There is a rich chapter on individual opposition to Nazism, looking at figures such as Edith Stein and Cardinal Clemens von Galen, as well as those who are less well-known: Alfred Delp SJ, and key protestants who opposed the regime’s injustices.

One of the important sources for the book is “The Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich - Facts and Documents” published by Burns and Oates in 1940 and recently reprinted.

“The Cross and the Third Reich” is an inspiring read. It shows how heroic Catholics and other Christians responded there and then to Nazism as it was growing in Germany as a popular movement, supported by vast crowds and hysterical popular acclaim. It is easy with hindsight to say what people should have done. Far more challenging is to compare their own witness with ours in easier circumstances.

Would you mind telling me what other Christian churches did anything for the Jews during the Holocaust? Whilst Pope Pius saved more than 800,000 Jews, did anyone else compare to this?

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Would you mind telling me what other Christian churches did anything for the Jews during the Holocaust?

Read the role of the Orthodox church in Bulgaria, or the role of the Lutheran Church in the scandanavian countries.

The catholic church was far from the only church to help save jews and speak out against naziasm.

onetruecathapos:

Whilst Pope Pius saved more than 800,000 Jews, did anyone else compare to this?

Regardless of whether other churchs saved 1, 10, 100, or 100,000 people, Im sure those who risked life and limb to save the life of even one jew did so out of compassion, empathy with their fellow human beings and a sense of moral outrage at naziasm, and did not not view what they were doing as a competition with the catholic chuch

 

[Publisher]

“The Hiding Place” is a wonderful movie…as is the book and it’s companion “A Prisoner and Yet…”

The ten Boom family and their sacrifice to protect Jews during the oocupation of Holland.

The book “Quakers and Nazis” tells the story of the Society of Friends in Nazi Germany.

 

[kalt]

Thank you, everyone.

People are critical of the CC’s role, but no one says anything about what others did. I’m glad to see that there are a few books out there (must be very obscure titles) to fill us in on the nitty gritty of the resistance.

Thank you!

 

[puzzleannie]

can’t let this go w/o mentioning the heroic Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and yes his work and the story of Corrie Ten Boom and other individuals of all faiths and no faiths who helped Jews are still in print and anything but obscure. Schindler was not really a man of faith, either.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Would you mind telling me what other Christian churches did anything for the Jews during the Holocaust? Whilst Pope Pius saved more than 800,000 Jews, did anyone else compare to this?

Read the role of the Orthodox church in Bulgaria, or the role of the Lutheran Church in the scandanavian countries.

The catholic church was far from the only church to help save jews and speak out against naziasm.

“The Hiding Place” is a wonderful movie…as is the book and it’s companion “A Prisoner and Yet…”

The ten Boom family and their sacrifice to protect Jews during the oocupation of Holland.

The book “Quakers and Nazis” tells the story of the Society of Friends in Nazi Germany.

can’t let this go w/o mentioning the heroic Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and yes his work and the story of Corrie Ten Boom and other individuals of all faiths and no faiths who helped Jews are still in print and anything but obscure. Schindler was not really a man of faith, either.

Another bubble burst

 

[kalt]

can’t let this go w/o mentioning the heroic Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and yes his work and the story of Corrie Ten Boom and other individuals of all faiths and no faiths who helped Jews are still in print and anything but obscure. Schindler was not really a man of faith, either.

I understand what you’re saying about individuals. The stories you mention are well known. What I’m interested in, though, is how the churches themselves handled the holocaust. What did the churches officially do and say.

Individual stories are inspiring, but since it’s the CC that is accused of doing too little, not individual Catholics, I’m wondering about the other Christian church’s actions and statements during the holocaust.

Thank goodness for Amazon, where you can find some of the titles suggested in this thread.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Read the role of the Orthodox church in Bulgaria, or the role of the Lutheran Church in the scandanavian countries.

The catholic church was far from the only church to help save jews and speak out against naziasm.

Regardless of whether other churchs saved 1, 10, 100, or 100,000 people, Im sure those who risked life and limb to save the life of even one jew did so out of compassion, empathy with their fellow human beings and a sense of moral outrage at naziasm, and did not not view what they were doing as a competition with the catholic chuch

Oh please…the Catholic church did more than ANYONE and still does so today. The fact that you ignore how pope Pius had risked his own life, and other clergy to help the 1 million Jews, just goes to show your terrible arrogance against anything the Catholic church stands for…yet you claim you know so much about the CC…give me a break.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Oh please…the Catholic church did more than ANYONE and still does so today. The fact that you ignore how pope Pius had risked his own life, and other clergy to help the 1 million Jews, just goes to show your terrible arrogance against anything the Catholic church stands for…yet you claim you know so much about the CC…give me a break.

You said:

Would you mind telling me what other Christian churches did anything for the Jews during the Holocaust?

I have, and so have other posters.

Are you going to read any of these recommended books that people have suggested for you?

How does highlighting what other wonderful christian churchs have done to support the Jews during the holocaust equate to ignoring the popes efforts?

 

[AngloCatholic1]

We can’t look at the 1930’s and 40’s through 21st century lenses. Why? Because the tale of “The Holocaust” has grown with the telling. Why? Two reasons: 1) When “The Holocaust” against the Jews was going on it was just ONE of MANY war time atrocities that were also occuring at the same time. In the latter days of the Reich, Germany was being beseiged on two fronts. The Luftwaffe had lost air supremacy to the Allies who were bombing cities and rail lines on almost a DAILY basis. Food and supplies were scarce for Germans, let alone for their avowed enemies! THAT is the MAIN reason why so many people in central Europe died of hunger and disease.

If you look at the news reports that were in print IMMEDIATELY after the war, you will NOT find any heavy emphasis on “The” Holocaust against the Jews… simply because TENS OF MILLIONS of peoples of MANY faiths and MANY nationalities had tragically died for NOTHING. But TODAY a biased media keeps focusing on ONE event, and asking everyone “What did YOU do about THE holocaust against the Jews?”. How come NOBODY talks about the MILLIONS of Ukranians who were butchered to death by the Soviets? How come NOBODY talks about the hundred thousand or more German civilians who were MURDERED by the Allied fire boming raid on Dresden? Dresden was NOT a military target; the ONLY purpose for the bombing was to murder German civilians.

Yes, there WAS a Holocaust. It affected ALL peoples, and its cause was WAR. So the real question is: How did (and how should) Christians respond to calls for War?

St. Francis, pray for us.

 

[kalt]

We can’t look at the 1930’s and 40’s through 21st century lenses. Why? Because the tale of “The Holocaust” has grown with the telling. Why? Two reasons: 1) When “The Holocaust” against the Jews was going on it was just ONE of MANY war time atrocities that were also occuring at the same time. In the latter days of the Reich, Germany was being beseiged on two fronts. The Luftwaffe had lost air supremacy to the Allies who were bombing cities and rail lines on almost a DAILY basis. Food and supplies were scarce for Germans, let alone for their avowed enemies! THAT is the MAIN reason why so many people in central Europe died of hunger and disease.

If you look at the news reports that were in print IMMEDIATELY after the war, you will NOT find any heavy emphasis on “The” Holocaust against the Jews… simply because TENS OF MILLIONS of peoples of MANY faiths and MANY nationalities had tragically died for NOTHING. But TODAY a biased media keeps focusing on ONE event, and asking everyone “What did YOU do about THE holocaust against the Jews?”. How come NOBODY talks about the MILLIONS of Ukranians who were butchered to death by the Soviets? How come NOBODY talks about the hundred thousand or more German civilians who were MURDERED by the Allied fire boming raid on Dresden? Dresden was NOT a military target; the ONLY purpose for the bombing was to murder German civilians.

Yes, there WAS a Holocaust. It affected ALL peoples, and its cause was WAR. So the real question is: How did (and how should) Christians respond to calls for War?

St. Francis, pray for us.

I would say that the people who suffered the most were the Russians - The numbers are staggering.

Coverage can be uneven on all kinds of topics. Look around and you would think that breast cancer must be the deadliest and most common cancer. Everything is pink! Buy a coffee–it comes in a cup with a pink ribbon on it. Spatulas come in pink now.

Some groups are better at PR and the media has favorites.

 

[kalt]

We can’t look at the 1930’s and 40’s through 21st century lenses. Why? Because the tale of “The Holocaust” has grown with the telling. Why? Two reasons: 1) When “The Holocaust” against the Jews was going on it was just ONE of MANY war time atrocities that were also occuring at the same time. In the latter days of the Reich, Germany was being beseiged on two fronts. The Luftwaffe had lost air supremacy to the Allies who were bombing cities and rail lines on almost a DAILY basis. Food and supplies were scarce for Germans, let alone for their avowed enemies! THAT is the MAIN reason why so many people in central Europe died of hunger and disease.

If you look at the news reports that were in print IMMEDIATELY after the war, you will NOT find any heavy emphasis on “The” Holocaust against the Jews… simply because TENS OF MILLIONS of peoples of MANY faiths and MANY nationalities had tragically died for NOTHING. But TODAY a biased media keeps focusing on ONE event, and asking everyone “What did YOU do about THE holocaust against the Jews?”. How come NOBODY talks about the MILLIONS of Ukranians who were butchered to death by the Soviets? How come NOBODY talks about the hundred thousand or more German civilians who were MURDERED by the Allied fire boming raid on Dresden? Dresden was NOT a military target; the ONLY purpose for the bombing was to murder German civilians.

Yes, there WAS a Holocaust. It affected ALL peoples, and its cause was WAR. So the real question is: How did (and how should) Christians respond to calls for War?

St. Francis, pray for us.

There are principles regarding “just war”.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

You said:

I have, and so have other posters.

Are you going to read any of these recommended books that people have suggested for you?

How does highlighting what other wonderful christian churchs have done to support the Jews during the holocaust equate to ignoring the popes efforts?

Name…in detail, what and, if how many souls were saved by other so called churches. NO ONE AND I REPEAT LOUDLY, NO ONE has done more for the Jews and others than the Catholic church, and it continues to do so today.
A lot of Bishops forged birth certificates for the Jews in order to save them. There are hundreds of these stories. Perhaps you need to read them and educate yourself that the good of my Catholic church and what it does for others. Especially the Holocaust.

 

[Cat]

I think we all need to be careful and consider the role of the non-Catholic Christian churches during the Holocaust in historical context.

Nowadays the internet and other electronic communication methods make it possible to communicate instantaneously with each other. We take this for granted now. If a “Holocaust” happened again (which it is in some part of the world), all of us can learn almost immediately what Pope Benedict XVI wants us to do.

But back then, communication had to occur by word of mouth and letter-writing. Everything was so much slower and disconnected. It might take weeks or months for a directive from a denominational headquarters to actually make it to the local church and pastor. And considering the censorship of the mail, it’s possible that a lot of denominational directives never made it and the local churches were left to deal with the Holocaust on their own, with only a Bible for guidance.

Protestant churches generally do not have a “central governing authority” as the Catholic Church does, so they were perhaps tossed about and disorganized as denominations, unlike the Catholic Church which had the Pope and the Magisterium to direct things. So it’s difficult to know how many Jews each denomination actually rescued. The Catholic Church was and still is more organized than most Protestant denominations.

A lot of the pastors and teachers of Protestant churches (as well as Catholic priests and religious) were taken to concentration camps as soon the Nazis occupied a town or city. This left their congregations on their own, to do good or to join in the evil.

*There were a lot of righteous Protestants, and they learned to be righteous through their churches, so in that respect, many Protestant churches did the Right Thing during the Holocaust and worked to saved the oppressed and give aid to Hitler’s victims. *

If you read Corrie ten Boom’s excellent books, you will read about an entire underground of hundreds of workers, many who belonged to the Reformed Churches. Again, these people learned to do these good works in their Protestant churches.

Many of these brave individuals didn’t survive, but sacrificed their lives to save Jews and others from the Nazi hoarde.

And most of the Christians, both Catholics and Protestants, who did survive, didn’t write books about their experiences. Their good works are known only within their family and by God. So our records are very incomplete.

I guess I don’t see the point of arguing about this. INDIVIDUALS made decisions to either do good or do evil. There were Catholics who made the decision to do good, but there were also Catholics who made the decision to allow the evil to continue. Same for Protestants.

 

[kalt]

I think we all need to be careful and consider the role of the non-Catholic Christian churches during the Holocaust in historical context.

Nowadays the internet and other electronic communication methods make it possible to communicate instantaneously with each other. We take this for granted now. If a “Holocaust” happened again (which it is in some part of the world), all of us can learn almost immediately what Pope Benedict XVI wants us to do.

But back then, communication had to occur by word of mouth and letter-writing. Everything was so much slower and disconnected. It might take weeks or months for a directive from a denominational headquarters to actually make it to the local church and pastor. And considering the censorship of the mail, it’s possible that a lot of denominational directives never made it and the local churches were left to deal with the Holocaust on their own, with only a Bible for guidance.

Protestant churches generally do not have a “central governing authority” as the Catholic Church does, so they were perhaps tossed about and disorganized as denominations, unlike the Catholic Church which had the Pope and the Magisterium to direct things. So it’s difficult to know how many Jews each denomination actually rescued. The Catholic Church was and still is more organized than most Protestant denominations.

A lot of the pastors and teachers of Protestant churches (as well as Catholic priests and religious) were taken to concentration camps as soon the Nazis occupied a town or city. This left their congregations on their own, to do good or to join in the evil.

*There were a lot of righteous Protestants, and they learned to be righteous through their churches, so in that respect, many Protestant churches did the Right Thing during the Holocaust and worked to saved the oppressed and give aid to Hitler’s victims. *

If you read Corrie ten Boom’s excellent books, you will read about an entire underground of hundreds of workers, many who belonged to the Reformed Churches. Again, these people learned to do these good works in their Protestant churches.

Many of these brave individuals didn’t survive, but sacrificed their lives to save Jews and others from the Nazi hoarde.

And most of the Christians, both Catholics and Protestants, who did survive, didn’t write books about their experiences. Their good works are known only within their family and by God. So our records are very incomplete.

I guess I don’t see the point of arguing about this. INDIVIDUALS made decisions to either do good or do evil. There were Catholics who made the decision to do good, but there were also Catholics who made the decision to allow the evil to continue. Same for Protestants.

You are aware that they had telephones in the 40’s.

But, again, I’m not asking about individuals. No one complains that individual Catholics didn’t do enough or say the right things–they complain that the Catholic Church didn’t do enough and say the right things. I’m asking about what the other Christian churches did and said. This information should be out there somewhere. There must be one non-Catholic Christian on the board who can point to some kind of official statement from their church regarding the “final solution” that was published during the war and to a record of action taken by the church. There has to be some record of those things.

If there isn’t, or they don’t know what their church did, how can they claim that the Catholic Church didn’t do enough? Why would they put the responsibility on the CC. Honestly, when they do that, it makes it sound like they really do view the CC as the one, true church–the one that all others look to and expect the example to be set by.

But there must be a record out there somewhere. I’m sure these churches didn’t say and do nothing.

When I read some of the books mentioned above, maybe I’ll know more. Maybe they don’t list the records either.

 

[AngloCatholic1]

Kalt wrote:

There must be one non-Catholic Christian on the board who can point to some kind of official statement from their church regarding the “final solution” that was published during the war and to a record of action taken by the church. There has to be some record of those things.

I agree with your reasoning… and I think I KNOW where its leading us. IF, and you can underline IF, the Nazi’s really did run some sort of official “Final Solution” campaign, and IF they made it well known (at least in government circles)… THEN there really should have been SOME KIND OF OFFICIAL STATEMENT coming from the Churches, especially the RC.

But there isn’t a statement. So what does THAT tell you? It SHOULD tell you, my Christian brothers and sisters, that the modern notion that the Germans had a “Final Solution” campaign underway MAY (and you can underline MAY) be greatly exaggerated. As I have stated above, the modern media machne has an agenda… and gently rewriting history (emphasizing some events whilst ignoring others) is part of it.

Otherwise we are faced with the “fact” that the Christian churches were all guilty of the sin of silence.