Hitler and the churches

[GKC]

You are aware that they had telephones in the 40’s.

But, again, I’m not asking about individuals. No one complains that individual Catholics didn’t do enough or say the right things–they complain that the Catholic Church didn’t do enough and say the right things. I’m asking about what the other Christian churches did and said. This information should be out there somewhere. There must be one non-Catholic Christian on the board who can point to some kind of official statement from their church regarding the “final solution” that was published during the war and to a record of action taken by the church. There has to be some record of those things.

If there isn’t, or they don’t know what their church did, how can they claim that the Catholic Church didn’t do enough? Why would they put the responsibility on the CC. Honestly, when they do that, it makes it sound like they really do view the CC as the one, true church–the one that all others look to and expect the example to be set by.

But there must be a record out there somewhere. I’m sure these churches didn’t say and do nothing.

When I read some of the books mentioned above, maybe I’ll know more. Maybe they don’t list the records either.

I recommend Raul Hilberg’s (the name may be familiar, if the Holocaust is of interest to you) PERPETRATORS, VICTIMS AND BYSTANDERS, esp. chap. 24.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Kalt wrote:

I agree with your reasoning… and I think I KNOW where its leading us. IF, and you can underline IF, the Nazi’s really did run some sort of official “Final Solution” campaign, and IF they made it well known (at least in government circles)… THEN there really should have been SOME KIND OF OFFICIAL STATEMENT coming from the Churches, especially the RC.

But there isn’t a statement. So what does THAT tell you? It SHOULD tell you, my Christian brothers and sisters, that the modern notion that the Germans had a “Final Solution” campaign underway MAY (and you can underline MAY) be greatly exaggerated. As I have stated above, the modern media machne has an agenda… and gently rewriting history (emphasizing some events whilst ignoring others) is part of it.

Otherwise we are faced with the “fact” that the Christian churches were all guilty of the sin of silence.

A perusal of a random selection of titles in hand (Friedlander/NAZI GERMANY AND THE JEWS 1939-1945:THE YEARS OF EXTERMINATION, Bauer/HISTORY OF THE HOLOCAUST, Levin/THE HOLOCAUST:THE DESTRUCTION OF EUROPEAN JEWRY 1933-1945, Gilbert/THE HOLOCAUST: A HISTORY OF THE JEWS OF EUROPE DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR) indicates your last sentence is more or less accurate.

GKC

 

[puzzleannie]

my graduate history research on the Holocaust is many years behind me but I seem to recall Lucy Davidowicz and Hannah Arendt are two writers who documented the fate of Jews in the various countries controlled by the Nazis either by election or by conquest and occupation, and how the various local governments, churches and other institutions did cooperate or did resist the anti-Jewish laws. Their work might answer your question, or lead you to sources that can. Protestant clergy and leadership in some countries, including Denmark and Holland, were notable for resistance not just to the Nazi regime in general but specifically to the anti-Jewish measures, as were of course Catholic church officials and even local governments in Italy.

Protesting clergy and leadership of all faiths were often the first to be rounded up and imprisoned, certainly in Germany, and in both the Protestant and Catholic areas as they were annexed or occupied, as in Czechoslovakia, Poland etc. This was of course done precisely to prevent coherent cohesive planned reaction.

The point other posters have made to OP’s question is that unlike the Catholic Church there is no central Protestant authority to have directed such resistance except in areas where ecclesiastical government was a reality, such as Lutheran parts of Germany. Even in the 30s-40s this was becoming much less centralized and hierarchical in comparison to earlier eras or to the Catholic Church.

 

[AngloCatholic1]

A perusal of a random selection of titles in hand (Friedlander/NAZI GERMANY AND THE JEWS 1939-1945:THE YEARS OF EXTERMINATION, Bauer/HISTORY OF THE HOLOCAUST, Levin/THE HOLOCAUST:THE DESTRUCTION OF EUROPEAN JEWRY 1933-1945, Gilbert/THE HOLOCAUST: A HISTORY OF THE JEWS OF EUROPE DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR) indicates your last sentence is more or less accurate.

GKC

Well of course, simply because THESE views are ALLOWED to be published. There are many other WWII scholars who have expressed contrary views on what occurred in Germany in the 1930’s and 1940’s. Men who have been publicly demonized by the current powers that be. Men like David Irving, Gerald Frederick Toben and Ernst Zundel for instance. These men have conducted in-depth research and have penned very convincing arguments against the “Hollywood version” of events. But are they invited to open public debate on the matter? No. They have ALL been locked up in PRISON for their views (Zundel in Germany and Toben and Irving in Austria). This begs the question: WHY?

I therefore personally find it VERY PLAUSIBLE that events in Germany 60 years ago were NOT QUITE as Hollywood now portrays… and the “guilt” of the churches was therefore not nearly so great as we might now imagine.

That’s my opinion, and it makes a lot more sense than Christian leaders knowingly standing quietly by whilst people are being forcibly dragged into “gas chambers”.

 

[GKC]

Well of course, simply because THESE views are ALLOWED to be published. There are many other WWII scholars who have expressed contrary views on what occurred in Germany in the 1930’s and 1940’s. Men who have been publicly demonized by the current powers that be. Men like David Irving, Gerald Frederick Toben and Ernst Zundel for instance. These men have conducted in-depth research and have penned very convincing arguments against the “Hollywood version” of events. But are they invited to open public debate on the matter? No. They have ALL been locked up in PRISON for their views (Zundel in Germany and Toben and Irving in Austria). This begs the question: WHY?

I therefore personally find it VERY PLAUSIBLE that events in Germany 60 years ago were NOT QUITE as Hollywood now portrays… and the “guilt” of the churches was therefore not nearly so great as we might now imagine.

That’s my opinion, and it makes a lot more sense than Christian leaders knowingly standing quietly by whilst people are being forcibly dragged into “gas chambers”.

I am familiar with the individuals you name. I am familiar with their views, and their legal troubles. I am familiar with those who follow their views, including those who assume that the exterminations were somehow widely trumpeted in the Reich.

I rarely treat with holocaust deniers. You are in the company of Bishop Williamson, among others. I wish you well of it, if you find such compatible.

GKC

 

[AngloCatholic1]

Hey, I’m NOT aligning myself with Irving, Toben and Zundel. All I’m trying to say is that the current view of the Holocaust is seen through a tinted lens, and that lens is created by the current money lords who presently control the governments and the media. So what is the truth? Well, the gospel records Pontius Pilate asking this very question, and at that exact moment he was staring into the eyes of Jesus.

And that’s who I’m aligning myself with.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

But let’s also remember people like the old Jewish couple saying they met at Auschwitz, survived the Holocaust out of love for each other, than to go on to Oprah’s talk show, then were exposed for their lies. They had never even been in Auschwitz. Their story was an out and out lie. How many people were also lying?
I believe the Holocaust happened and it was a horrible crime against Jews and others, but these people like this are the one’s where rumors start lessening the credibility of the Holocaust.
My question is this that no one seems to want to answer, or can’t. **What and which “Christian” churches did anything for the Jews more than Pope Pius? **Just a simple question.

 

[GKC]

But let’s also remember people like the old Jewish couple saying they met at Auschwitz, survived the Holocaust out of love for each other, than to go on to Oprah’s talk show, then were exposed for their lies. They had never even been in Auschwitz. Their story was an out and out lie. How many people were also lying?
I believe the Holocaust happened and it was a horrible crime against Jews and others, but these people like this are the one’s where rumors start lessening the credibility of the Holocaust.
My question is this that no one seems to want to answer, or can’t. **What and which “Christian” churches did anything for the Jews more than Pope Pius? **Just a simple question.

The old Jewish couple has no relevance to the issue of the Holocasut, as has been pointed out to you, before.

As to your last question, I personally know of no one, individual or group, that did more than Pius XII.

GKC

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

The old Jewish couple has no relevance to the issue of the Holocasut, as has been pointed out to you, before.

As to your last question, I personally know of no one, individual or group, that did more than Pius XII.

GKC

The old Jewish couple absolutely does have relevance here. THEY LIED about the whole story. And you think they did nothing wrong?

 

[kalt]

Well of course, simply because THESE views are ALLOWED to be published. There are many other WWII scholars who have expressed contrary views on what occurred in Germany in the 1930’s and 1940’s. Men who have been publicly demonized by the current powers that be. Men like David Irving, Gerald Frederick Toben and Ernst Zundel for instance. These men have conducted in-depth research and have penned very convincing arguments against the “Hollywood version” of events. But are they invited to open public debate on the matter? No. They have ALL been locked up in PRISON for their views (Zundel in Germany and Toben and Irving in Austria). This begs the question: WHY?

I therefore personally find it VERY PLAUSIBLE that events in Germany 60 years ago were NOT QUITE as Hollywood now portrays… and the “guilt” of the churches was therefore not nearly so great as we might now imagine.

That’s my opinion, and it makes a lot more sense than Christian leaders knowingly standing quietly by whilst people are being forcibly dragged into “gas chambers”.

Has anyone read Directive 19? What did you think? Accurate? I haven’t read it yet, so please don’t give away anything that might make reading it more interesting not knowing it ahead.

 

[GKC]

The old Jewish couple absolutely does have relevance here. THEY LIED about the whole story. And you think they did nothing wrong?

You are still an odd conversationalist, among other things. Whether those two did anything wrong has no bearing on the historical facts of the Holocaust. Unless you try taking some of those books I mentioned above (which I doubt you will), checking the indexes, and trying to find the names of those two as being a basis for the proof of the deaths of the 4+ millions.

To prove those two lied says nothing about the historical facts in toto.

GKC

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

You are still an odd conversationalist, among other things. Whether those two did anything wrong has no bearing on the historical facts of the Holocaust. Unless you try taking some of those books I mentioned above (which I doubt you will), checking the indexes, and trying to find the names of those two as being a basis for the proof of the deaths of the 4+ millions.

To prove those two lied says nothing about the historical facts in toto.

GKC

Has to do with credibility…

 

[GKC]

Has to do with credibility…

Relates only to those two and their credibility. The evidence for the holocaust is not dependent on personal anecdotes, though they certainly are supportive, in their totality. Do make a note of the books above. Books can be read; I often recommend that, not always with much in the way of expectations.

GKC

 

[AngloCatholic1]

GKC:

I think that you’re ignoring a fact of human nature. As kids we’ve all participated in that game whereby several kids sit around a room in a large circle, and then a message is passed quietly from ear to ear… and once it comes full circle the meaning has entirely CHANGED.

I think what OneTrueCathApos is trying to say is that every time someone tosses a lie into the mix, the picture becomes further distorted. There’s a kernal of truth within it, but it’s increasing hard to discipher as time rolls on.

And THAT’S where we’re at now with this issue. FACT: When the movie “schindler’s list” first hit the big screen, I happened to read an article in a British newspaper which sent shivers down my spine. It was a full two-page interview with the wife of Oskar Schindler, then living in South America. She had been invited by Speilberg to the grand opening of the film, and was SHOCKED by what she saw. Scene after scene was full of blatant lies. She KNOWS, because she was there when many of the things portrayed in the film actually happened. She admits Schindler was NOT the hero Speilberg portrayed at all. Not even close.

I wish to God I had kept that article, but it’s the principle reason why I NEVER paid money to see that film.

Read 1 John 4, and you will see that the spirit of truth can ONLY be found in those who acknowledge that the CHRIST has come in the flesh. It would appear that Speilberg et. al. are STILL waiting for Him.

 

[GKC]

GKC:

I think that you’re ignoring a fact of human nature. As kids we’ve all participated in that game whereby several kids sit around a room in a large circle, and then a message is passed quietly from ear to ear… and once it comes full circle the meaning has entirely CHANGED.

I think what OneTrueCathApos is trying to say is that every time someone tosses a lie into the mix, the picture becomes further distorted. There’s a kernal of truth within it, but it’s increasing hard to discipher as time rolls on.

And THAT’S where we’re at now with this issue. FACT: When the movie “schindler’s list” first hit the big screen, I happened to read an article in a British newspaper which sent shivers down my spine. It was a full two-page interview with the wife of Oskar Schindler, then living in South America. She had been invited by Speilberg to the grand opening of the film, and was SHOCKED by what she saw. Scene after scene was full of blatant lies. She KNOWS, because she was there when many of the things portrayed in the film actually happened. She admits Schindler was NOT the hero Speilberg portrayed at all. Not even close.

I wish to God I had kept that article, but it’s the principle reason why I NEVER paid money to see that film.

Read 1 John 4, and you will see that the spirit of truth can ONLY be found in those who acknowledge that the CHRIST has come in the flesh. It would appear that Speilberg et. al. are STILL waiting for Him.

If by et al you mean Irving and his ilk, I certainly concur. Just moved my copy of LYING FOR HITLER/Evans, from one shelf to another, this morning.

If you take your history from Hollywood, you are bound to get a Hollywood version. That the film wasn’t an accurate reflection of Schindler himself is well known. Which says nothing about the Holocaust. You can find several newspaper accounts about the faults of the movie around. Including on Irving’s site.

A lie in the mix, in the case of the two elderly Jewish folk referenced, has no relevance to the historical account of the Holocaust as documented, say by Hilberg. Or a Hollywood treatment of Schindler, likewise.

GKC

 

[kalt]

You are still an odd conversationalist, among other things. Whether those two did anything wrong has no bearing on the historical facts of the Holocaust. Unless you try taking some of those books I mentioned above (which I doubt you will), checking the indexes, and trying to find the names of those two as being a basis for the proof of the deaths of the 4+ millions.

To prove those two lied says nothing about the historical facts in toto.

GKC

But let’s not forget that everything written is written by someone with an opinion. Use the books to extract the facts. Then check and recheck the facts. Facts found in one book may be refuted in another, so which set is true. And we all know how once a “fact” is accepted it is repeated many times in subsequent authoritative publications. If the “fact” is untrue, it’s untrue every time it’s repeated.

It makes no difference how many times a false fact is repeated - it’s still false–so appealing to the majority opinion doesn’t always lead to the truth.

The evidence of the Holocaust is overwhelming. The nitty gritty details probably will never be known with 100% accuracy. Nothing is.

 

[GKC]

But let’s not forget that everything written is written by someone with an opinion. Use the books to extract the facts. Then check and recheck the facts. Facts found in one book may be refuted in another, so which set is true. And we all know how once a “fact” is accepted it is repeated many times in subsequent authoritative publications. If the “fact” is untrue, it’s untrue every time it’s repeated.

It makes no difference how many times a false fact is repeated - it’s still false–so appealing to the majority opinion doesn’t always lead to the truth.

The evidence of the Holocaust is overwhelming. The nitty gritty details probably will never be known with 100% accuracy. Nothing is.

Agreed as to all. Which is one reason I own around 20,000 books.

GKC

 

[Guyonthestreet]

GKC:

FACT: When the movie “schindler’s list” first hit the big screen, I happened to read an article in a British newspaper which sent shivers down my spine. It was a full two-page interview with the wife of Oskar Schindler, then living in South America. She had been invited by Speilberg to the grand opening of the film, and was SHOCKED by what she saw. Scene after scene was full of blatant lies. She KNOWS, because she was there when many of the things portrayed in the film actually happened. She admits Schindler was NOT the hero Speilberg portrayed at all. Not even close.

One of Emilie Schindler’s biggest critcisms of the film was it completely ignored her role in the saga.

 

[GKC]

One of Emilie Schindler’s biggest critcisms of the film was it completely ignored her role in the saga.

There are a number of things that are said of the film, true. She does make a cameo, at the end, but more of her was cut out.

GKC

 

[AngloCatholic1]

By “Money Lords” I mean the families who OWN the governments of this planet. As I’m sure we all know by now, the monetary system used by the world’s government changed in 1910. That’s when we went off the old gold system and onto the new “government BORROWS credit from private international banks” system. The laws creating the US Federal Reserve were shoved through around Christmas time, when many representatives were absent for the vote. Also, the true nature of the new banking system was very obscure to most men in government. They even gave it the name :Federal Reserve" to imply that it was owned by the Federal Government (it’s not) and that is issues money backed up by gold reserves (it doesn’t). It’s owned by PRIVATE international banking cartels, and it CREATES the money on a balance sheet out of thin air! Obama borrows a TRILLION DOLLARS from them and on the balance sheet it reads $1 TRILLION credit to the owners of the Fed, and $1 TRILLION debt to the US taxpayers. And THEN the US government can issue cheques and print currency totalling $1 TRILLION.

The owners of the Fed get interest payments on this money for DOING NOTHING. It’s been this way since 1910. The same happened here in Canada when the “Bank of Canada” was created. It’s NOT owned by the Federal government in Canada. Same with the “Bank of England”. It’s all a SCAM.

So who owns the Fed? A purusal on the internet will quickly tell you. You’ll see names like “Rothschild”, “Morgan”, “Warburg” and “Leeman” amongst others. These are the RICHEST familes in the world, and they could buy and sell Bill Gates a thousand times over. Now some, but not all, of these families describe themselves as Jewish. German Jews in fact. But that’s just another smoke screen in my books. They’re actually occultists, and they are intricately tied to secret societies within secret societies. Rothschild for certain. This is why Roosevelt placed the Masonic symbolism on the back of the One Dollar bill during his “New Deal” era in the 1930’s.

And THAT’S who I mean by the “Money Lords”. They CONTROL the people we elect to “run” the government. And when the people we elect get too big for their boots, they conveniently get rid of them. I’ve heard it said that JFK made overtones in the Whitehouse about eventually doing away with the Federal Reserve system. The whole world saw what happened after that.

They are HIDING BEHIND the name “Jew”. That’s Satan’s ultimate protection! Remember the words of Our Lord:

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." - Rev. 2:9