Well then it shouldn’t surprise you that my main Study Bible is “The Reformation Study Bible” with the English Standard Version translation with R.C. Sproul as the General Editor. It was my Rector (Pastor) who told me about it and suggested I get a copy.
I wish contemporary Christianity received predestination as a given. I’m not so sure if contemporary Christianity is very biblical. Here is a call for repentance and return to the solas of the Reformation. If you get married to your current boyfriend, will you raise your children Catholic or Protestant?Not offended nor do I misunderstand double-predestinationI’ve got a Presbyterian boyfriend, and we talk about religion and tease each other about predestination and grace and redemption a lot. But thanks for the clarification on the general Protestant view, I thought predestination was a given. I’ll take a look at the link sometime when I have time. Right now I’m busy with reading Augustine!
It seem most major Protestant denominations have both a liberal and orthodox divisions within it’s roots. I used to belong to a PCA church near Westminster West Seminary in Escondido, CA. Then I moved to Oregon which is the least churched state in the country. It is still considered God’s country in the sense of what He created - Psalm 19. It’s such a beautiful state (rom 1) but a very liberal one too.
Likewise, I’m not sure contemporary Christianity is very biblical either. But they are Christian. And they are trying, so I’ll give them that.I wish contemporary Christianity received predestination as a given. I’m not so sure if contemporary Christianity is very biblical. Here is a call for repentance and return to the solas of the Reformation. If you get married to your current boyfriend, will you raise your children Catholic or Protestant?
He actually already knew the Catholic view on this, and it is not a problem to him. Catholicism is just as valid a denomination to him as Presbyterianism, so it is not a problem to raise the kids as Catholics. So, yes, to answer your question directly, they will be raised as Catholics.I have three boys that are now teenagers. My oldest is a Sophmore at the local secular University. When I first became a Calvinist about 12 years ago, I wondered if my kids should marry an Arminian Christian. In the last several years, the question came up if it’s okay for my kids to marry a Catholic Christian. I’d rather have my kids marry a converted Roman Catholic Christian who loves God than an unconverted Protestant who has no real love for God. I think in Heaven, theological distinctives will disappear. The ones who will be in Heaven are those who love God. Good theology should grow us in affection and love for God. Unbibiblical theology has the tendency to create religious idols of the heart. I wish you and your boyfriend the best in Christ.Likewise, I’m not sure contemporary Christianity is very biblical either. But they are Christian. And they are trying, so I’ll give them that.
I’m sure you’ll understand, but as a Catholic, I won’t join you in the call to return to the solas
He and I have already talked about that
What I love about him is that we both can talk theologically, without our conversations ever degenerating into proselytizing. We both have a rule of never evangelizing anybody unless it is clear that they have fallen away from Christianity as a whole (that is, Catholics and Protestants). Otherwise it’s quibbling over details.
I love how in Heaven all the sad divisions will cease.
Thanks, I heard that explanation at another Catholic site. I’m glad Rome allows breathing room on many of the issues. Mary as co-redeemer is not official RC dogma too, correct? I do not believe a Christian needs to understand predestination to be saved.Catholicism allows several tendencies to co-exist:
Hope that helps
- Augustinianism (minus some of his ideas)
- Thomism
- Jesuit versions of Thomism - whence:
- Molinism
- Non-Roman (but Catholic) theological ideas in the other Churches that are in full communion w/ Rome
None is official doctrine, none is condemned - all are allowed. So the position, & emphasis on, P., in Catholicism in its constituent Churches & Rites, is not the same as in (say) Calvinism, in which it is very important. The two have different theological priorities & emphases, as well as differences of content.
read Romans chapter 8, too. Can’t read 9 without reading 8 first, to put 9 in context.
Umm…Catholics can indeed believe in predestination, just so you know. Just not double-predestination.
Catholics believe in single predestination–God chose some to be the elect, and then there’s everybody else (i.e. He created Mary to be sinless)
Many Protestants believe in double predestination–God chose some to be the elect, and He chose the rest to be reprobates.
Just clarifying something. I had thought for a long time that predestination was wrong, until I started reading works by Catholic apologists, and the Catechism, and the Bible, and realized that, indeed, single predestination is something taught in the Bible and by Augustine (and Aquinas? I forget). It’s just to the extent of predestination that is contentious to Protestants, still.
My two cents, I thought I ought to share. And if these comments get flamed cough cough, you know who you are I’ll pray a decade of rosary for you
Sharing Bible verses is not flaming.
Sharing Bible verses in an aggressive manner order to satisfy your need to exert superiority over Catholicism on a Catholic thread that is charitably allowing your account to remain open is not charitable in return. Paul taught meekness in spreading the Gospel. Perhaps you should heed his teachings and sit back for a few days, eh? Contemplate what Paul taught his disciples to do, when they were spreading the gospel.
)Maybe I’m more like minded with an RC monergist, than a staunch hard-core Protestant Arminian. Afterall, God is sovereign, and He does everything for His own glory. I believe it is impossible for God to lie, and all that He promises will come to pass. I find a wide variance of Roman Catholics on this site. I guess that’s no different than participating on an all Protestant site.My pleasure
No, she isn’t - & a good thing too (IMHO). If the idea of c-r’ion were related to the sole satisfactory work of Christ in a way that avoided obscuring it, I think I could accept it; but not otherwise. (I’m a sort of RC monergist
We can believe in
The RC understanding of preterition (= “leaving out” [of the final number of those redeemed by Christ]) is not what a Calvinist means by the word; for Calvinists, preterition is something God does actively, not a Divine non-acting (as it is for us). We see the same result - the damnation of some - but from different POVs
- double predestination
but not in- double positive predestination
So we can believe that God- **positively **predestined St. X to be saved
- negatively predestined Y to be reprobated
but are not allowed to believe that God- **positively **predestined Y to be reprobated
but only in- single positive predestination
Which raises further issues…
How does your view of monergism play itself out in the context of the Roman Catholic teaching on justification? IOW…if the sole basis of our redemption is Christ’s work on behalf of humanity, how do you reconcile that Trent has placed something within the quality of man as responsible for the merit which gains him entrance into heaven? Now I know that Rome does not teach that man merits his justification based on his works absent a state of grace, but that his works (and the works of others, like the saints) merits it to the degree that God condescends to graciously reward him with justification.My pleasure
No, she isn’t - & a good thing too (IMHO). If the idea of c-r’ion were related to the sole satisfactory work of Christ in a way that avoided obscuring it, I think I could accept it; but not otherwise. (I’m a sort of RC monergist
AFAICS, Isaiah 63 gives us a type of Christ the “alone” Redeemer - compare:
- Rev. 14
- Rev. 19
IOW:- the “winepress of the wrath of God the Almighty” - Rev. 14
- has been trodden alone - Isa. 63
- whence the blood on His clothing - Rev. 19
Which at least implies - no co-redeemer
They may all used the word “predestination”, but they didn’t all believe the same thing. In particular, what Calvin believed was nothing like what Augustine or even Luther believed.
Do you mind sharing the distinct differences that you stated. I have read more writings of Calvin than Luther. But, I thought Luther taught predestination with greater force than Calvin. I also have read works by Augustine too. Please help me understand what you are sharing. I believe Augustine influenced both Luther and Calvin, but I could be wrong. Without the complete sovereignty of God in all things including salvation of sinners (predestination), can we trust God to accomplish all that He promises in His Word (the Bible)?