Hitler's Pope?

[Lion_of_Narnia]

By the way, all Catholic Nazi party members (along with Communist party members) were excommunicated by the German Bishops in February 1932

This included Hitler.

As far as I know, the excommunion was never rescinded.

Correction, the excommunication was pronounced February 1931

Sorry

 

[VociMike]

When there are two, strongly-held, yet divergent views on a subject (like Pius XII) it is usually the case that the truth is often in the middle. Pius cared about the Jews, but never made it a point to “go public” with any significant case against the Nazis or Hitler. He wrongly thought going public would hurt his own people.

Please see the following review of two books about Pius – both books by devout lifelong Catholics. Interestingly, one who opposed Pius’ policy of silence was the first American to achieve the rank of nuncio, or papal ambassador, Joseph P. Hurley. Hurley was overruled and the policy of silence remained in place.

Pius was a good man, but he could have been far better. So could we all.

spectator.co.uk/print/the-magazine/books/839276/the-pope-was-wrong.thtml

It’s important to examine the “he should have said more” view. What if he did say more? What effect would that have had? Would anybody in Nazi-controlled regions have heard it? And if they did hear it, then what? And if the countries fighting against the Nazis heard it, then what?

I’d like to hear a plausible scenario as to how “he should have said more” would have resulted in fewer deaths, rather than resulted in more deaths (Jewish and Christian alike).

 

[Kaninchen]

Many Catholics where killed, just as Jews.

Most of them, of course, were killed for the crime of being Polish.

 

[PerryJ]

I am amazed that these types of comments still exist. Doesn’t anyone read any history prior to falsely accusing the Church or for that matter anyone or anything of such serious allegations?

Prior to Pope Pious becoming Pope he officially condemned the Nazi regime 55 times. This was when he was the ambassador of the Vatican to Germany. These acts caused repercussions from Hitler. In fact when Pope Pious was ordained the German government strongly opposed it as Pope Pious was considered a “Jew” lover.

Once he became Pope and Hitler began his rain of terror of killing Catholics and Jews, obviously more Jews, it was told to him by the German government that any negative actions by him would cause more deaths. As a result Pope Pious chose not to excommunicate Hitler. He also limited the number of speeches in which he directly confronted Hitler. In fact Hitler hated Pope Pious so much that he had plans created to kidnap him. The Pope knew of these plans; however, did not leave the Vatican. He instead had letters drawn that when kidnapped his papacy would end and that a new Pope would need to be selected. He did not want the Germans to be able to use him against the world.

After the war many of the leading Jewish people publicly gave their gratitude to the Pope for saving hundreds of thousand of Jews. The Catholic Church under the direct charge of the Pope gave millions of dollars to underground groups that were saving Jewish people. To one group alone he donated 4 million dollars. In fact he personally hid 4,000 Jewish children at his estate. After the war the Jewish people gave him their highest honor as a “righteous gentile”. I do not have my sources with me; however, I can prove everything I stated. If one wants my sources tell me and I will bring them tomorrow and post them

 

[Kaninchen]

Once he became Pope and Hitler began his rain of terror of killing Catholics and Jews, obviously more Jews,

What ‘reign of terror’ of killing Catholics any more than, say, socialists, communists and Protestants?

Whatever it was, it certainly didn’t prevent overwhelmingly Catholic Austrians from welcoming the Anschluss in 1938.

I’m not saying that Catholics didn’t suffer (though the vast majority of Catholics killed were Polish ‘Untermenschen’) but that to talk about a ‘reign of terror of killing Catholics’ is just not correct.

 

[PerryJ]

What ‘reign of terror’ of killing Catholics any more than, say, socialists, communists and Protestants?

Whatever it was, it certainly didn’t prevent overwhelmingly Catholic Austrians from welcoming the Anschluss in 1938.

I’m not saying that Catholics didn’t suffer (though the vast majority of Catholics killed were Polish ‘Untermenschen’) but that to talk about a ‘reign of terror of killing Catholics’ is just not correct.

The Jewish faith was by far the most murdered. No questions about it; however, history shows that Catholic Priests were rounded up and sent to the concentration camps. Not accidentally; but, by direct order to capture and send them to the camps.

 

[edwest2]

Yeah I forgot to mention this since I really wanted to get that response out to you quickly, but you might want to add that one of the book I cited Righteous Gentiles was written by a Rabbi.

In fact, the Chief Rabbi of Rome during Pius XII’s time, Israel Zolli, was hidden by the Catholic Church from the Nazis. He actually converted to Catholicism after he said he received a vision of Jesus, and took the Christian Name of Eugenio in honour of Pius XII (whose birth name was Eugenio Pacelli). Zolli was at the heart of it all: he was in Rome and at the summit of Judaism. Yet he praised the Pope for his hard work and even honoured him by taking on his name.

If Pius XII really was Hitler’s Pope, you’d have Jewish people hating him. Yet look where we are. Jewish leaders, scholars, historians and rabbis exhonerate the Pope and in fact praise him for the work he did.

People and their interesting versions of history… and by interesting, I mean stupid, backed up by a grand total of zero facts and using a grand total of zero brain cells.

I lost patience with these kinds of people long ago. It’s exhausting to deal with because everytime I encounter someone like that, I don’t want to let them go. Even though it’s like teaching advanced history to a bunch of brain-dead idiots, I can’t sit on my hands and let them do that.

The difference between us and them is that they come up with fake facts on the whim while we work to disprove their “facts” using sources and logic. It’s exhausting, but I feel we have to do it. Otherwise they’ll continue doing that and give the Church a worse reputation than it deserves. There are popes and bishops who did horrible things in the past, but historians showed us the Church during the Holocaust doesn’t qualify.

And this is never going to stop. For every liar out there that I correct, there are hundreds more that I never encounter, never get to show them how wrong they are. My whole life will be spent on that. I’m not even 24 yet and already I’m exhausted.

I suggest you consider the words of Pope John Paul II who was awakened by kids playing outside his room when he was a guest outside of Italy: “Even the Pope has to sleep.”

I recommend you get enough rest, including mental relaxation. You will do no good later on if you find yourself exhausted at 24 and this will only lead to nervous exhaustion later on.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Kaninchen]

The Jewish faith was by far the most murdered. No questions about it; however, history shows that Catholic Priests were rounded up and sent to the concentration camps. Not accidentally; but, by direct order to capture and send them to the camps.

So were socialists, communists, protestants, Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals et al.

By far most Catholics were living ‘business as usual’ lives in the Reich (by which I mean the Reich’s equivalent of ‘business as usual’) just as were most Protestants - in civilian life, in the armed forces, even in the SS.

 

[quasimodo]

When there are two, strongly-held, yet divergent views on a subject (like Pius XII) it is usually the case that the truth is often in the middle. Pius cared about the Jews, but never made it a point to “go public” with any significant case against the Nazis or Hitler. He wrongly thought going public would hurt his own people.

Please see the following review of two books about Pius – both books by devout lifelong Catholics. Interestingly, one who opposed Pius’ policy of silence was the first American to achieve the rank of nuncio, or papal ambassador, Joseph P. Hurley. Hurley was overruled and the policy of silence remained in place.

Pius was a good man, but he could have been far better. So could we all.

spectator.co.uk/print/the-magazine/books/839276/the-pope-was-wrong.thtml

As the Lion of Narni, a pointed out this charge is a crock of misguided, misinformed BS.

The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1941 (Late Day edition, p. 24):

The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas… he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all… the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism… he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace.

It’s easy for some one without real responsibility to criticize someone with all the responsibility.

 

[edwest2]

The Forgotten Holocaust:

amazon.com/Forgotten-Holocaust-German-Occupation-1939-1944/dp/0781809010

Not to mention thousands of Polish officers and religious who were murdered by the Russians and buried in a mass grave in the Katyn forest. The Russians blamed it on the Nazis.

“Business as usual”? The German police was a paramilitary formation under the control of the SS. Living in a country where you could be taken out and shot or simply placed in a concentration camp as a ‘political prisoner’ for speaking out against the leadership? Most people in the Western world have no concept of this.

Peace,
Ed

 

[PerryJ]

So were socialists, communists, protestants, Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals et al.

By far most Catholics were living ‘business as usual’ lives in the Reich (by which I mean the Reich’s equivalent of ‘business as usual’) just as were most Protestants - in civilian life, in the armed forces, even in the SS.

I am not truly in disagreement with this thought concerning Catholics. I am not trying to portray Catholics murdered where at the level of the Jews. Preists where specifically targeted though. The overriding point of my post though is that Pope Pious saved hundreds of thousand of Jews and put Catholics at risk doing it. He directly ordered intervention.

 

[edwest2]

As the Lion of Narni, a pointed out this charge is a crock of misguided, misinformed BS.

The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1941 (Late Day edition, p. 24):

The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas… he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all… the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism… he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace.

It’s easy for some one without real responsibility to criticize someone with all the responsibility.

Here is an example of why “opinions” are not only often worthless but damaging.

God bless,
Ed

 

[mercygate]

Get a copy of *The Myth of Hitler’s Pope *by Rabbi David Dalin.

Do I make myself clear*? RABBI *David Daliin.

 

[PerryJ]

Get a copy of *The Myth of Hitler’s Pope *by Rabbi David Dalin.

Do I make myself clear*? RABBI* David Daliin.

Great book! Much of my posts was taken from my memory of this book. Every Catholic should read it.

 

[mercygate]

Great book! Much of my posts was taken from my memory of this book. Every Catholic should read it.

I bought 6 copies and hand 'em out whenever somebody brings up the subject.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

After the war the Jewish people gave him their highest honor as a “righteous gentile”. I do not have my sources with me; however, I can prove everything I stated. If one wants my sources tell me and I will bring them tomorrow and post them

I was wondering, what’s your source on him being listed as a Righteous Gentile? In my threads on this post, I did research and couldn’t find any solid reference to him being named one. Look here at the Yad Vashem website, listing the Righteous Among the Nations for Italy (there is no listing for the Holy See or the Vatican, so presumably Pius would have been listed under Italy):

www1.yadvashem.org/righteous_new/PDF%20Virtual_Wall_Of_Honor/ITALY.pdf

 

[Kaninchen]

I am not truly in disagreement with this thought concerning Catholics. I am not trying to portray Catholics murdered where at the level of the Jews. Preists where specifically targeted though. The overriding point of my post though is that Pope Pious saved hundreds of thousand of Jews and put Catholics at risk doing it. He directly ordered intervention.

The problem of the Pius argument, as I see it, is that by concentrating on exceptions the point is missed that is not missed elsewhere - for example the existence of an Oskar Schindler didn’t let all shady, nominally Catholic, entrepreneurs off the hook.

The thing is that Catholics, including Catholic clergy, behaved well and badly, some were ‘white’, some were ‘black’ (the ‘brown priests’, for example - ok, brown not black) but most people lived in a ‘gray’ area.

All these decades on, what is most important, I would suggest, is an understanding of the ‘gray’ people because its on their potential successors that ‘never again’ really depends.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

I bought 6 copies and hand 'em out whenever somebody brings up the subject.

The problem of course, though, is that nobody reads.

That’s the thing with these Pius XII allegations. There already is much proof that Pius did so much to help Jews, but people are too flippin stupid to learn.

Dumb myths live on through dumb people. They hear one thing from some liar, take it as truth, then spread it around without bothering to really learn about it.

Gotta wonder why God even bothered giving these idiots brains.

 

[mercygate]

The problem of course, though, is that nobody reads.

That’s the thing with these Pius XII allegations. There already is much proof that Pius did so much to help Jews, but people are too flippin stupid to learn.

Dumb myths live on through dumb people. They hear one thing from some liar, take it as truth, then spread it around without bothering to really learn about it.

Gotta wonder why God even bothered giving these idiots brains.

As the old saying goes, a lie can run half way around the world before Truth can lace up its boots.

 

[PerryJ]

The problem of course, though, is that nobody reads.

That’s the thing with these Pius XII allegations. There already is much proof that Pius did so much to help Jews, but people are too flippin stupid to learn.

Dumb myths live on through dumb people. They hear one thing from some liar, take it as truth, then spread it around without bothering to really learn about it.

Gotta wonder why God even bothered giving these idiots brains.

I do not know how to fix this problem. Half my posts are restating history. I think the Catholic Faith is hurt more by the twisting of history than its doctrine. So many people just don’t read enough to know what is truth and what is not. Some people we can’t even get to evangelize because of all of these myths.