Hitlers pope

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Many say that pope puis was hitlers allie. Jesus told us to feed, cloth and to not hate our enemy but to love him as a neighbor. What is your take on this role
 
Archangel17 said:
Many say that pope puis was hitlers allie. Jesus told us to feed, cloth and to not hate our enemy but to love him as a neighbor. What is your take on this role
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Perhaps you should actually read Cornwell’s book, which (while controversial and probably at least two-thirds bunk) is not as sensationalistic as the title. It is a very bad idea to base your judgment of anything on a misunderstood book title.

No historically well-informed person, not even Cornwell, seriously believes that Pius XII was Hitler’s ally. What Cornwell claims is that because Pius XII was anti-Semitic (or anti-Jewish) in a fairly common early-20th-century Catholic way (linked to anti-Communism), he was incapable of seeing the threat of Nazism and of acting decisively to stop Hitler and save Jews.

I think Cornwell is wrong more than half the time. But even if he’s right, he’s not saying what you seem to think he was saying.

Edwin
 
Thank you for clearing that up. My misunderstanding was as manies who do not have a whole lot of information on the matter and for that i thank you again.
 
Cornwell’s book (and the whole calumny against the saintly Pius XII) has been **thoroughly **debunked:

catholiceducation.org/links/search.cgi?query=pius+xii

Some people, in their bigotry eager to cast any aspersion (no matter how ludicrous) on the Catholic Church or blame her for everything from acne to tight underwear, will continue to believe what they want.:rolleyes:
 
Archangel17 said:
Many say that pope puis was hitlers allie. Jesus told us to feed, cloth and to not hate our enemy but to love him as a neighbor. What is your take on this role
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While I haven’t read either book, a Jewish Rabbi wrote a book to counter Cornwell’s book. I would suggest that you read both books to get a better view of things.

Here is John Cornwell’s book:

Hitler’s Pope

and David Dalin’s:

The Myth of Hitler’s Pope
 
Pius 12 spoke on radio and wrote plainly and often in newspapers against Naziism before and during WW2. He harboured 4000 Jews personally in the Vatican houses and printed travelling papers for them in the Vatican press. 850 000 Jews were rescued by virtue of his directives.

Many Catholics risked or lost their lives protecting Jews. The Chief Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism because of the courage and love shown by Pius 12 to the Jews. Yad Vashem declared Pius 12 a Righteous Gentile and Gold Meir thanked him for what he had done.

Here is a webpage which lists a myriad of documents attesting to what I have posted.

PIUS XII & THE HOLOCAUST
After assuming the Chair of Peter as Pius XII in 1939, his became the world’s single most important moral voice speaking against Hitler and his murderous regime…

By **1925 **the potential for violence [of the Nazis] is clear to Pacelli, particularly after he reads Hitler’s Mein Kampf, which is published that year…

1928 On March 28, in response to the concern of Pius XI and Pacelli, the Vatican’s Holy Office issues a decree condemning Nazi racial hatred of Jews…

1930 Cardinal Pacelli [through] *L’Osservatore Romano… *declares: “Belonging to the National Socialist Party of Hitler is irreconcilable with the Catholic Conscience.” These pieces are reprinted in diocesan newspapers around the world…

**1933 **Pacelli oversees “the dispatch of sixty notes in which the Vatican protested to Hitler against the persecution of the Jews up to the outbreak of war.”

**1935 **Cardinal Pacelli tells an estimated 325,000 pilgrims, including many Germans, that “the Church will never come to terms with Nazis as long as they persist in their racial philosophy”… In Rome, Pacelli tells French Ambassador that Hitler is “diabolical.”

**1936 **In repeated broadcasts Vatican Radio condemns the injustice and inhumanity of [the Nuremburg] laws.

1937 Cardinal Pacelli drafts the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge, issued in March by Pope Pius XI.

**1939 **Cardinal Pacelli sends messages to the archbishops of the world asking them to try to persuade their governments to throw open their doors to the hundreds of thousands of Jews who are seeking to escape from German persecution.

Pius XII issues his first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus… The Nazis are furious. The French are so pleased that they print 70,000 copies and have them dropped over Germany.

The New York Times sums it up in a headline, “Pope Condemns Dictators, Treaty Violators, Racism: Urges Restoring of Poland.”

…and so on… read more …
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I would strongly recommend people read RABBI David Dalin’s book THE MYTH OF HITLER’S POPE.

Something that has gotten covered up in the slander: One of the first thing the modern State of Israel did was to publicly thank Pope Pius XII, saying that the Vatican had saved more European Jews than all the American Jewish Organizations put together.

Something else that is not in Rabbi Dalin’s book: Israel Zwolle, the sometime Chief Rabbi of Rome, was a personal friend of Pius XII. After the war, when there was NO political advantage to doing so, he was baptized in the Roman Catholic church, taking the name Eugene–Pope Pius’s baptismal name.

Think about it.
 
I will read rabbi book. I asked the question not to say anything bad or wrong against the pope or the church. I wrote to see if there was anybody who has ever had that same feeling that is being pushed on them when they go to read a history book that is suppose to be fact. The pope and the church did the right thing and God bless that they had God with them. I did not just mean the book Hitlers pope sorry for the mistake that i made.
 
Archangel17 said:
I will read rabbi book. I asked the question not to say anything bad or wrong against the pope or the church. I wrote to see if there was anybody who has ever had that same feeling that is being pushed on them when they go to read a history book that is suppose to be fact. The pope and the church did the right thing and God bless that they had God with them. I did not just mean the book Hitlers pope sorry for the mistake that i made.
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Hey, It’s okay. I had you figured right from the outset. I just wanted you to have the benefit of all the research that I did on this topic.
The peace of the Lord be always with you. 🙂
 
From what I understand…the concept is over reaching at best and a fabrication at worst. If I recall correctly the picture on the cover of the book had Pius emerging from a car surrounded by German soldiers. On EWTN they noted that the implication was the Pope going to cow tow to Hitler. Reality was the photo was taken much earlier and they were soldiers just not Nazi soldiers.

There is even more disputing the issue. From a very surface look at the issue, it appears that to link Pius to Hitler is simply anti Catholic propaganda.

Rev North
 
There was a recent book written based on the stories of a Nazi commander in Italy that was supposedly put in charge of a force that was sent to Italy to take over the vatican and capture the Pope so Hitler could install his own pope and take over the church. That commander fought this plan and worked against it, but it was a very real threat and it is clear Hitler meant to take over the catholic church because it opposed Hitler and his policies.
 
Fidelis said:
Cornwell’s book (and the whole calumny against the saintly Pius XII) has been **thoroughly **debunked:

catholiceducation.org/links/search.cgi?query=pius+xii

Some people, in their bigotry eager to cast any aspersion (no matter how ludicrous) on the Catholic Church or blame her for everything from acne to tight underwear, will continue to believe what they want.:rolleyes:
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I should repeat that I was not endorsing Cornwell in any way, simply pointing out that this is where the phrase came from, and it’s not justified even by what Cornwell claims. I lean toward the anti-Cornwell side, but I have not studied the matter sufficiently to be sure just how much of Cornwell’s argument is or is not valid (mostly I’ve read the articles in First Things to which another poster referred).

I think the broad argument that Christian anti-Judaism made even Christians of good will slower and clumsier in their response to Nazi anti-Semitism than they might be probably has some weight (the point has been made even about the “Confessing Church”), but I think Pius XII has been unfairly singled out in this regard. He clearly was opposed to Nazism and wanted to protect Jews (and others) from Nazi atrocities. Whether he did as much as he could have done; whether his opposition to Nazism was as forthright as it could have been; and whether anti-Jewish prejudices played some role in any failures of which he can be accused; these are open questions for me given the current state of my knowledge of the subject.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
I think the broad argument that Christian anti-Judaism made even Christians of good will slower and clumsier in their response to Nazi anti-Semitism than they might be probably has some weight…
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I totally agree, although I think it would be more accurate to call it anti-Semitism rationalized by an (erroneous) appeal to Christian teaching, specifically the Scriptures.

In other words, large segments of Europe had long held cultural and racist attitudes and stereotypes about Jews (fueled mostly by ignorance and jealousy), and they abused Scripture to justify their bigotry, thus demonstarting that the hateful will use even whatever is good to do evil.
 
RevDrNorth said:
From what I understand…the concept is over reaching at best and a fabrication at worst. If I recall correctly the picture on the cover of the book had Pius emerging from a car surrounded by German soldiers. On EWTN they noted that the implication was the Pope going to cow tow to Hitler. Reality was the photo was taken much earlier and they were soldiers just not Nazi soldiers.

Rev North
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Yes they were soldiers of the Weimar Republic. Pius XII was there during a reception for Paul Von Hindenburg when he was the Papal nuncio in Berlin. I want to say that it was taken in 1927, maybe 1928. Either year, Hitler had nothing to do with it. A very misleading picture. :tsktsk:

God Bless
 
Roman_Catholic said:
Yes they were soldiers of the Weimar Republic. Pius XII was there during a reception for Paul Von Hindenburg when he was the Papal nuncio in Berlin. I want to say that it was taken in 1927, maybe 1928. Either year, Hitler had nothing to do with it. A very misleading picture. :tsktsk:

God Bless
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Thank you for providing specifics I just could not remember them. Very misleading indeed of the author to imply that they were Nazi soldiers. Simply…anti Catholic propoganda.

I felt the same way when I discovered Michael Moore had manipulated the truth in his movie about the Bush issues before the last election. One scene made it look like Bush was at some Kabal of wealthy leaders. The reality was Gore was also there and if I recall correctly it was some main Knights of Columbus function. When I realized I fell for it I was irritated.

We need to be discerning. But the author (just like Michael Moore) has made his cash off of it and people who dislike Catholics will accept it as THE truth …facts be darned.

Rev North
 
Archangel17 said:
Many say that pope puis was hitlers allie. Jesus told us to feed, cloth and to not hate our enemy but to love him as a neighbor. What is your take on this role
Click to expand...
The Myth of Hitler’s Pope
Book Description
In Rabbi David G. Dalin’s new book, he explodes the newly resurrected, widely accepted, yet utterly bankrupt smearing of Pope Pius XII, whom Jewish survivors of the Holocaust considered a righteous gentile.

Israeli historian and diplomat Pinchas Lapide, who had been the Israeli consul in Milan and had spoken with many Italian Jewish Holocaust survivors. In his meticulously researched and comprehensive 1967 book Three Popes and the Jews, Lapide persuasively argued that Pius XII “was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands.” Lapide’s volume reamians the definitive work by a Jewish scholar on the subject."

“And, as we will see, Hitler did have one loyal cleric within his entourage. It was not the pope. It was Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the viciously anti-Semitic grand mufti of Jerusalem, the leader of the radical Islamic fundamentalists in Palestime, the leader of the 1929 mass murders of Jews in Hebron, and the mentor of and inspiration for Yasser Arafat and many other Arab leaders. Hajj Amin al-Husseini was an open ally of Hitler, met with Hitler several times, and repeatedly called for the destruction of European Jewry. It is radical Islam–Hitler’s overt ally in World War II–not the Catholic Church, that threatens Jews today.”

The Myth of Hitler’s Pope, Rabbi David G. Dalin
DAVID G. DALIN, an ordained Rabbi, is a Professor of History and Political Science at Ave Maria University in Naples, Florida. He is the author or co-author of several books, including The Presidents of the United States and the Jews (with Jonathan D. Sarna) and Religion and State in the American Jewish Experience. He received his B.A. from the University of California at Berkeley, his M.A. and Ph.D. from Brandeis University, and his Rabbinic Ordination from the Jewish Theological Seminary of America.
amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0895260344/ref=dp_proddesc_0/105-1886218-0658854?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books
 
What I have read, says to me, that the pope went over & above, in his efforts to save Jews from the Nazis.
I was interested about the picture! I did not know that…But you know, it wouldn’t make a bit of difference to me, if Pope Pius had been photographed with Nazi soldiers around him. He could, after all, have been working to save Jews (& others) by being in contact with some of the Nazis…From what I know, he was gutsy enough to do that!
I wonder what some of his critics would have done, in his place??? It is always easy to sit back & criticize someone else, without having walked a mile in their shoes…Only when they can prove themselves brave enough to risk their lives, as he risked his, should they say anything.
Still, nice to know that picture was not what it has been reported to be.

And its a good question, asked, I feel sure, from good motives. It gave us a chance to clear the air on some of the details of the story!!
 
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