N
- Status
T
thomasf
Guest
I gotta chime in here and say I hate doing the hand holding thing. We never did it when I was growing up, and for some reason now all the churches I’ve been in do it. I can handle not doing it myself, but I find it calls attention to me when I don’t hold hands. It’s a catch 22 either way. Yeck.
M
Michael_Welter
Guest
I did read the article before commenting. I didn’t miss any of it. See my comments below.
The part you left out here is the biginning of the article, which quotes a vatican document. That document, as quoted, is clearly addressing the issue of replacing the Sign of Peace with Hand Holding during the Our Father. The author of this article, in the part that you have copied here, expands on that document to include any hand holding during the Our Father. He is adding his own interpretation. Since he is not the Holy See, his interpretation is worth nothing, especially since he is expanding the meaning of the document which he has quoted. Therefore, he loses all credibility with me.
B
BigFeet
Guest
Hand holding during Mass is just one of the many “arbitrary deformations of the liturgy”, as our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI puts it, that provoked him to write his decree returning the old Latin Mass to Catholic altars around the world.
Praise God for B16! This is only the beginning of how the Church will begin “reforming the reform”. Slowly but surely, we’ll all be able to worship God the way the Church intends, and our misguided bretheren will learn to leave all their Kumbaya-touchy-feelly, it’s-all-about-me innovations at home.
raymondarroyo.com/latinmass.html
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=52403
:extrahappy:
Praise God for B16! This is only the beginning of how the Church will begin “reforming the reform”. Slowly but surely, we’ll all be able to worship God the way the Church intends, and our misguided bretheren will learn to leave all their Kumbaya-touchy-feelly, it’s-all-about-me innovations at home.
raymondarroyo.com/latinmass.html
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=52403
:extrahappy:
B
BigFeet
Guest
The author that you’re slamming, Colin B Donovan, is the Vice President for Theology at EWTN. He also has the Licentiate in Sacred Theology, with a specialization in moral theology, from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas (Angelicum) in Rome. As Vice President of EWTN over the past 12 years, Mr. Donovan has had direct contact with hundreds of priests and bishops, as well as the Holy See. He’s posted much of his correspondence from the Roman Curia on EWTN’s website, where he is EWTN’s expert in answering questions regarding the Church’s liturgy for Mass and the other sacraments, and about liturgical music.
If Mr. Donovan’s very public and very authoritative “interpretations” were in error, rest assured that the he would be receiving clarifications directly from the Roman Curia, and he would be promptly correcting his “interpretations”.
N
ncjohn
Guest
That’s all fine and dandy. There are some bishops who also agree with much of his reasoning, and they also are in contact with the Holy See. There are also many who totally disagree with his reasoning.
But in the end, they are not the Holy See, and their interpretations are solely their opinions, which do not agree with the expressed statement of the governing body to which regulation of the liturgy is delegated–the USCCB–whose response is that there is no prescribed position for the hands during the Our Father.
If we can be sure that his statements would be corrected if they were in error, we can be even more assured that over a forty year period the Church would have corrected the situation had they felt this to be an abuse. Yet when issuing Redemptionis Sacramentum, whose only purpose was to correct abuses, this is not even mentioned.
I know many good arguments both for and against. And contrary to your less than charitable characterization, for those who participate this is not the least about being “touchy-feely” or “all about me”, but a genuine attempt to act in communion as we pray to OUR Father. You may not see it as such or see such a need, and that is your prerogative. It is not your prerogative, however, to be making judgments about other’s piety or motivations any more than it is for those who do prefer it to be making judgments about those who don’t as “cold hearted” or “holier than thou”.
As I’ve said previously, unless and until the Church takes a definitive position, it would behoove us all to comply with Archbishop Chaputs call to mutual charity.
Peace,
M
Michael_Welter
Guest
Very impressive credentials, indeed. It makes me wonder why he’s adding a meaning to the text that clearly isn’t there.
S
Stillkickin
Guest
Several have been mentioning the GIRM, but no one has quoted it so…here are a couple of quotes from te GIRM.
Stillkickin
- The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest
approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.
They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.
With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal. - Among gestures included are also actions and processions: of the priest going with the deacon and ministers to the altar; of the deacon carrying the Evangeliary or Book of the Gospels to the ambo before the proclamation of the Gospel; of the faithful presenting the gifts and coming forward to receive Communion. It is appropriate that actions and processions of this sort be carried out with decorum while the chants proper to them occur, in keeping with the norms prescribed for each.
- In the Lord’s Prayer a petition is made for daily food, which for Christians means
preeminently the eucharistic bread, and also for purification from sin, so that what is holy may, in fact, be given to those who are holy. The priest says the invitation to the prayer, and all the faithful say it with him; the priest alone adds the embolism, which the people conclude with a doxology. The embolism, enlarging upon the last petition of the Lord’s Prayer itself, begs deliverance from the power of evil for the entire community of the faithful. The invitation, the Prayer itself, the embolism, and the doxology by which the people conclude these things are sung or said aloud.
Stillkickin
F
fix
Guest
I have posted this before. The argument never seems to end.
P
Philothea53
Guest
That’s the way I used to do it until the person next to me grabbed my hand and wouldn’t let go.
Now I keep my hands together, fingers laced and my focus on the altar so there is no misunderstanding that I don’t want to hold hands. 
Now, as to the Priest - I understood that the Priest assumes the orans position during all other parts of the Mass when praying because he is offering prayer on our behalf, but during the Our Father, he, as well as the congregation, should all be holding our hands in a prayerful position since at that time the Priest is not offering prayer on our behalf but praying WITH us. Response?
S
sphilomena
Guest
Sorry if this was already mentioned, but I didn’t see it. There is a quote about no person, “not even the priest” making any changes in the Mass. The hand holding originated from charismatic and protestant practices and is, therefore, from the laity. This is unacceptable. It is a totally horizontal gesture, detracting from the vertical dimension of the Mass and the Our Father.
Maybe one of us can find that quote. It was addressing abuses that sprang up with all the Mass “innovations”.
Maybe one of us can find that quote. It was addressing abuses that sprang up with all the Mass “innovations”.
P
Philothea53
Guest
I don’t mean to keep this conversation going as I think it will not be satisfied (like women wearing veils) until we hear something definitive from Rome or at least spelled out by the USCCB but, I was wondering if this was ever addressed in the Catechism, either the old one or the one currently being used? Anyone been through RCIA lately?
N
ncjohn
Guest
First off, nobody has really been able to p(name removed by moderator)oint where it originated from, though several possibilities including those you mention have been brought up. And ultimately, where it came from isn’t really relevant to the issue after 40 years, though it might be of historical interest.
More importantly though, the quote you mention has to do with priests changing the liturgy. It has nothing to do with spontaneous postures of individuals. If a priest or liturgical director, or some other third party directs people to hold hands, that would be illicit. Individual decisions to do so are no different than individual decisions were 50 or 100 years ago to fold one’s hands, place them on the back of the pew, hold one’s missal or rosary, or to hold one’s child. There has never been a prescription for hand postures for the Our Father.
As to the Our Father being a vertical dimension, it is both a horizontal and a veritcal prayer. It is the one prayer of the Mass prayed as a community to OUR Father, which is why those who choose to hold hands find great symbolism in that gesture. Naturally though, that does not obligate anyone to participate who feels otherwise.
Peace,
O
otjm
Guest
There is nothing anywhere other than yopur own personal opinion that it is “totally horizontal”. Further, the prayer is partially “horizontal” to use your terminology; it is repeatedly shot through with words such as “our” and “us”; can’t get much more “horizontal” than that.
To say that it is unacceptable is to say that there is a regulation as to how your hands should be - but there isn’t. It is no more unacceptible than putting your hands into your pockets - a gesture that certainly is not prayer like, but is not forbidden - or crossing your arms across your chest, a body language sign of rejection.
O
otjm
Guest
The Catechism doesn’t address liturgical issues and postures, and neither, directly, does RCIA; they are both oriented towards building faith, and discussing morals and doctrinal issues.
O
otjm
Guest
Interestingly, that seems to be a suggestion if the link that Fix posted.That’s the way I used to do it until the person next to me grabbed my hand and wouldn’t let go.
Now, as to the Priest - I understood that the Priest assumes the orans position during all other parts of the Mass when praying because he is offering prayer on our behalf, but during the Our Father, he, as well as the congregation, should all be holding our hands in a prayerful position since at that time the Priest is not offering prayer on our behalf but praying WITH us. Response?
B
BigFeet
Guest
I’m sorry, but to say that we should all hold hands while reciting The Lord’s Prayer because we say “Our Father” and “forgive us” is really opening a can of worms. I think that even the most passionate hand-holder will become rather fatigued by the end of Mass if the use of “horizontal” terminology within prayers is the rationale for grabbing your neighbor’s hand.
Let’s start with the Penitential Rite (depending on the form that is used):
Lord, we have sinned against you…
Lord, show us your mercy and love…
May almighty God have mercy on us,
forgive us our sins,
and bring us to everlasting life.
Next, move on to the Gloria:
…we worship you,
we give you thanks,
we praise you for your glory.
…have mercy on us;
…receive our prayer.
The priest begins the Opening Prayer:
Let us pray.
The Creed:
We believe in one God…
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ…
For us men and our salvation…
For our sake he was crucified…
We believe in the Holy Spirit…
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead…
I could continue, but I’m sure you get the picture. “Horizontal” terminology is used throughout the entire Mass, and yet thankfully, none of the innovators have caught on to that little secret thus far. Please don’t tell them though. It would get quite difficult for us to keep track of which Rosary bead we’re on while our congregation recites the Rosary together before Mass. :grouphug:
We believe in one God…
…Our Father…
…Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
…etc, etc…
:whacky:
O
otjm
Guest
My comments were limited to the post I was replying to. I did not suggest that we should hold hands; in fact, my opinion was not asked on the matter and i did not give it. I simply responded to the post as the poster was saying that by holding hands we were “making” the prayer horizontal; I disagreed. The prayer is a community prayer, not an individual prayer; so are the ones you pointed out. None of that suggests that one should hold hands during any or all of the prayers mentioned.
Saying that holding hands makes the prayer horizontal is simply parroting (poorly) issues that have little or nothing to do with the issue at hand - should one hold hands or not. The choice to hold or not hold hands is not regulated as there is no posture regulated for the hands; neither side should insist that the other is wrong; each individual should decide what they do; and while the wisdom of the issue can most certainly be debated, unless and until Rome decides after 40+ years of this issue what it is specific posture of hands is, the debate will most likely continue.
A side issue I would prefer not to get into in this thread is the issue of “horizontal”. Another time, another place. There is ample reasoning to suggest that hand-holding is not a good liturgical practice without going down that alley.
S
sphilomena
Guest
I said that the laity introducing innovations is what is unacceptable.
M
Michael_Welter
Guest
Unacceptable to who? If it was unacceptable to the Vatican, they would have stopped it long ago. Instead, they’ve been silent on the matter.
- Status