Holding hands at Our Father

[adrift]

Maybe I am wrong here, but it seems to me, Jesus gave us this prayer and said OUR Father not MY Father well, something to think about.

God Bless
onenow1

Jesus did give us the Our Father but I don’t remember the instructions to say it while holding hands.

When people hold hands there is no problem, it is when those same people try to make it mandatory that it is.

The sign of unity is the Eucharist. If people believe it is the holding of hands that shows unity, they are in mho poorly educated in both the understanding and purpose of the liturgy. Our focus should be on Jesus not each other.

 

[clem456]

When people hold hands there is no problem, it is when those same people try to make it mandatory that it is.

Stop it already, you’re going to give me nightmares!

 

[adrift]

No, that ios not correct; that is the Germanic approach (and one that seems to be consistently American). The Mediterranean approach is that what is not prohibited is allowed. You are correct that your interpretation is the American approach; but it is not Rome’s approach.

Documentation of this statement?

 

[ProVobis]

Maybe I am wrong here, but it seems to me, Jesus gave us this prayer and said OUR Father not MY Father well, something to think about.

Maybe not. The Aramaic supposedly has something along the lines of “O Father.”

The Pater Noster was actually prayed only by the priest prior to 1970 or so. It is “Our” or “Noster” Father as opposed to “My” or “Meus.” (sw85 already pointed that out.) You wouldn’t want the priest to say “Meus Pater” in the EF, would you?

 

[malphono]

Maybe not. The Aramaic supposedly has something along the lines of “O Father.”

Well …uh … not quite. Matthew 6:9 in the Pshitta very clearly beings with “OUR Father” …

 

[clem456]

Maybe not. The Aramaic supposedly has something along the lines of “O Father.”

The Pater Noster was actually prayed only by the priest prior to 1970 or so. It is “Our” or “Noster” Father as opposed to “My” or “Meus.” (sw85 already pointed that out.) You wouldn’t want the priest to say “Meus Pater” in the EF, would you?

What about the rest of the ourses and uses.
Give us this day,
forgive us our,
as we forgive them what, (er pardon my colloquialism)
as we forgive those who, or which.

The prayer looks to unity. It is certainly petitional, but it assumes unity with the body.
This is the postscript to the prayer as given by our Lord Jesus:

14 For if you forgive **other people **when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

 

[onenow1]

Jesus did give us the Our Father but I don’t remember the instructions to say it while holding hands.

When people hold hands there is no problem, it is when those same people try to make it mandatory that it is.

HI,Adrift
The sign of unity is the Eucharist. If people believe it is the holding of hands that shows unity, they are in mho poorly educated in both the understanding and purpose of the liturgy. Our focus should be on Jesus not each other.

No argument here on the other hand I am not aware of anyone making it mandantory. After the Great Amen Jesus is in our midst. Mother Theresa saw Jesus in every face it just maybe the person next to you needs this assurance. Just saying.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[chimo]

It’s because it’s unnecessary at best and exclusive at worst.

Exclusive, because people tend not to hold hands with whomever, but just their family, or just their friends, or people they know. So you end up have little pockets of hand holding going on. It turns out, rather than being community focused, to be anti-community. Someone there alone can feel isolated and outcast.

Unnecessary, because the priest, with his hands in the orans position (hands outstretched; palms raised) is already standing in a position of offering himself and the entire congregation together. That is why we shouldn’t also be using this position ourselves. A congregant using the orans position symbolically says we are not apart of the whole congregation which the priest is standing for, but we want to do it ourselves, on our own, not be included with the rest and with him.

So both things end up separating us from worshiping together as a community; something that flies against our faith. We are ONE body.

At my Orthodox Church we used the orans position, all of us including the priest at the time of the Our Father because we are taught that this is the position which the Holy Mother often uses.

 

[ProVobis]

What about the rest of the ourses and uses.
Give us this day,
forgive us our,
as we forgive them what, (er pardon my colloquialism)
as we forgive those who, or which.

Okay, you got me there. But what about the rest of the Mass?

From just a few lines of the EP1,

We come to you, Father, with praise and thanksgiving, through Jesus Christ your Son.

Through him we ask you to accept and bless these gifts we offer you in sacrifice.

We offer them for your holy catholic Church, watch over it, Lord, and guide it; grant it peace and unity throughout the world. We offer them for N. our Pope,for N. our bishop, and for all who hold and teach the catholic faith that comes from the apostles.

On this basis, it seems like we can justify holding hands outside the Pater Noster, no?

 

[otjm]

Documentation of this statement?

It was in a class I took in law school. Not impossible to find the information. It is part of a philosophy of law class.

 

[otjm]

Jesus did give us the Our Father but I don’t remember the instructions to say it while holding hands.

Given He was Jewish, He probably payed in the orans position.

When people hold hands there is no problem, it is when those same people try to make it mandatory that it is.

Shade of Archbishop Chaput!

I agree with you; charity can be lacking on both sides of the issue.

The sign of unity is the Eucharist. If people believe it is the holding of hands that shows unity, they are in mho poorly educated in both the understanding and purpose of the liturgy. Our focus should be on Jesus not each other.

Holding hands doesn’t focus on each other any more than does sitting together in a pew, of singing along with everyone else.

The purpose of going to Mass together is (gasp!) communal worship. It is not some individualistic action.

 

[ProVobis]

The purpose of going to Mass together is (gasp!) communal worship. It is not some individualistic action.

I’m sure Christ dealt with a few introverts in His time. Just saying.

 

[buzzoff1031]

Is it not simply OK for one to have a preference to not hold hands–even if the local custom is to do so? I like people, but holding hands weirds me out…

 

[otjm]

Is it not simply OK for one to have a preference to not hold hands–even if the local custom is to do so? I like people, but holding hands weirds me out…

Of course it is ok. There is no requirement to hold hands; there also is no requirement to not hold hands.

The Church simply does not have a rule on the matter.

 

[jimkhong]

Congrats otjm on 5000 posts.

Fully agree with what you say. I think the only requirement is for all Catholics to be sensitive and tolerant of all expressions of personal piety, both of those holding the posture and those responding to someone else’s posture. Shouldn’t this be protected by the First Amendment in the Church?

Why is Western Christianity so fearful of diversity? Is the a fear that variations in how people chooses to express piety lead to fragmentation and schism of the Church?

 

[ProVobis]

Is it not simply OK for one to have a preference to not hold hands–even if the local custom is to do so?

Problem is, unlike other preferences, it takes more than one person to hold hands. The clash is very prominent when one person insists on holding hands and the next one insists on NOT doing it. I witnessed such an event last week in the pew right in front of mine. It wasn’t pretty and it was really distracting.

 

[Kal2012]

When I first started going to mass, I thought it was weird when people held hands at the “Our Father”. I tend to hold hands with my son (if he’s w/me), but I’d prefer not to hold hands w/anyone during the prayer. (However, he’s 5 and it’s a way to focus him back on the mass.)

I’m glad that it was stated that there was “no rule” about it because that’s always been my impression. Some people do. Some people don’t.

A traditionalist friend went to another parish and she posted on Facebook that she thought it was weird that people were holding hands during the “Our Father” because her parish doesn’t do that. I found her insight interesting because it confirmed my impression that this was something that people did by choice. As a result, I don’t feel qualms about choosing not to participate in the hand holding.

 

[felsguy]

Why is Western Christianity so fearful of diversity? Is the a fear that variations in how people chooses to express piety lead to fragmentation and schism of the Church?

Yes, I think to a large part it stems from the Counter-Reformation emphasis on orthodoxy and unaminity which over the subsequent centuries seeped into all areas of the Church. I would characterize the catechesis during my youth as “memorize and do, don’t think, and even, don’t you dare think.” Vestiges of that approach still remain.

.

 

[DavidinStLouis]

Yes, I think to a large part it stems from the Counter-Reformation emphasis on orthodoxy and unaminity which over the subsequent centuries seeped into all areas of the Church. I would characterize the catechesis during my youth as “memorize and do, don’t think, and even, don’t you dare think.” Vestiges of that approach still remain.

.

The other side of that coin - the notion of “diversity” in the worship - is that it could eventually lead to disjointed “chaos” at Mass. Where did this holding of hands and hands in the Orans position begin?.. and what does it lead to? And where does this “diversity” eventually end?

Can these questions be answered adequately??

 

[pnewton]

This decree was given by the bishop in my diocese. This precise topic is addressed on page 3 point 4. c.

From the link.

No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.

This statement is not the same thing as proscribing that we have no position, a logical impossibility.

I like what Cardinal Arinze says on the subject:

“If they want to hold that way, it’s alright. If they want to hold that way, it’s alright. It is not proscribed. But when they go proscribing, it’s too much.”

youtube.com/watch?v=Iix5v1ytwBA

and

“Why do you regiment the people of God? Are they soldier? Allow them some freedom” Rome is not real strict on this. I think it best that we let the people of God be the people of God.

youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM