Holding hands at the Our Father

[Tsuwano]

A lot of people like to hold hands during the Our Father and I see nothing wrong with that. I don’t like it myself, but that is just a personal feeling and isn’t based on theology. If someone extended their hand to me during the Our Father I would willingly take it despite my discomfort. After all, if it helps that person experience the Lord’s presence, then I will do everything I can to support that experience. We’re all instruments of his love and I hope I can be a sign of that love in any way I can.

 

[Tsuwano]

Feelings are irellevant. The congregation holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is a violation of the Liturgical Norms. No priest or lay person has the right to alter the Liturgical Norms

Karl Keating, the owner of Catholic Answers, stated in his E-Letter of April 11, 2006 :

ORIGINS OF HAND-HOLDING

The current issue of the “Adoremus Bulletin” says this in response to a query from a priest in the Bronx:

“No gesture for the people during the Lord’s Prayer is mentioned in the official documents. The late liturgist Fr. Robert Hovda promoted holding hands during this prayer, a practice he said originated in Alcoholics Anonymous. Some ‘charismatic’ groups took up the practice.”

My long-time sense had been that hand-holding at the Our Father was an intrusion from charismaticism, but I had not been aware of the possible connection with AA. If this is the real origin of the practice, it makes it doubly odd: first, because hand-holding intrudes a false air of chumminess into the Mass (and undercuts the immediately-following sign of peace), and second, because modifications to liturgical rites ought to arise organically and not be borrowed from secular self-help groups.

Periodically, on “Catholic Answers Live” I am asked about hand-holding during Mass and explain that it is contrary to the rubrics. Usually I get follow-up e-mails from people who say, “But it’s my favorite part of the Mass” or “We hold hands as a family, and it makes us feel closer.”

About the latter I think, “It’s good to feel close as a family, but you can hold hands at home or at the mall. The Mass has a formal structure that should be respected. That means you forgo certain things that you might do on the outside.”

About the former comment I think, “If this is the high point of the Mass for you, you need to take Remedial Mass 101. The Mass is not a social event. It is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary, and it is the loftiest form of prayer. It should be attended with appropriate solemnity.”

Feelings are never irrelevent. They may not be what we should consider first and foremost when making decisions, but that doesn’t make them irrelevent or unworthy of careful reflection.

 

[CalifCatholic]

Feelings are never irrelevent. They may not be what we should consider first and foremost when making decisions, but that doesn’t make them irrelevent or unworthy of careful reflection.

Would we want a Supreme Court justice to use “feelings” to influence a judgement on a matter of law? Of course not.

What we “feel” on this issue has no bearing on whether it is right or wrong. In that sense, they are irrelevant

 

[Remington]

Why. Do. You. Not. Listen??? People HAVE been forced to hold hands. I have; if not physically (I still have, and I am stronger than most people), psychologically (as many have said, we don’t want to make a scene during the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass); or even by assuming “this is what we do, therefore it’s required”, and not even having a choice. I have even been serving at Holy Mass when the priest called all the servers around the altar to hold hands during the Pater Noster!!!

That’s NOT being “forced” to hold hands. No doubt some feel pressured to hold hands in very rare situations but that’s an entirely different thing. If you actually feel pressured to hold hands then choose one of the many solutions that have been talked about for ages on these forums – from holding one’s hands in the 5on5 with eyes closed to keeping one’s hands in one’s pockets to not standing near anyone, etc., etc. and be done with the problem already.

So we spew hatred, but you do not. Reread this topic from a neutral perspective and see whose comments have been most inflammatory–or better yet, have someone else (someone neutral) do it.

This is not about being forced (or even pressured) to hold hands – it’s all about controlling what other people are doing (in this case hand holding) based on one’s own feelings of what is proper or allowed. These conversations will continue to go around and around and around in circles not because people don’t want to be forced/pressured to hold hands but because they want everyone to stop holding hands at Mass, period.

That’s sad because most who do will never be able to take the next step of learning how to ignore those who hold hands during the Mass. Instead they’ll grow more and more bitter that people are still holding hands at Mass. If someone suggests they simply learn to ignore it – that it’s really none of their business, they can counter with the good old notion that they are FORCED to hold hands and the consternation continues…

As far as “hatred”, I have seen hatred and ignorance spewed about on this thread with respect to Protestantism.

 

[Remington]

Would we want a Supreme Court justice to use “feelings” to influence a judgement on a matter of law? Of course not.

What we “feel” on this issue has no bearing on whether it is right or wrong. In that sense, they are irrelevant

I pray to God that Supreme Court Justices FEEL when they are deliberating on a case before them…

 

[Remington]

A lot of people like to hold hands during the Our Father and I see nothing wrong with that. I don’t like it myself, but that is just a personal feeling and isn’t based on theology. If someone extended their hand to me during the Our Father I would willingly take it despite my discomfort. After all, **if it helps that person experience the Lord’s presence, then I will do everything I can to support that experience. ** We’re all instruments of his love and I hope I can be a sign of that love in any way I can.

I never considered that. Ministering to someone else in that manner. Very powerful…

 

[CalifCatholic]

In a word, no it’s not. It’s not a violation of everything. Now some liturgists and theologians have speculated that it impinges on the Mass but that’s simply their opinion. It is not something that needs to be followed.

You are incorrect sir. To introduce something into the Liturgy that is not there is a violation.

I have heard the argument that the rubrics also do not say NOT to old hands and therefore it is acceptable. That is faulty logic. The rubics do not say that we can’t stand on our heads during the Lords Prayer either. Can we deduce from this that is is okay to stand on our heads?

The Vatican is clear on this matter: The public worship of the Church is no one’s private property, and no one has the right to veer from the rubrics. Or perhaps you think that everone from Karl Keating to te Pope doesn’t know what they are talking about

 

[CalifCatholic]

In his book, Mass Confusion, Jimmy Akin says the following:

“The Holy See has not ruled directly on this issue. In a response to a query, however, the Holy See stated that holding hands “is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics” (Notitiae 11 [1975] 226, DOL 1502 n. R29). For this reason, no one can be required to hold hands during the Our Father.”
(Nor is the orans posture in the rubrics.)

The U.S. Status:
People hold hands during the Our Father (p. 161)—Discouraged
(*Mass Confusion *Appendix Three pg. 234)

In the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal the only posture specified during the Our Father is standing.
GIRM: usccb.org/liturgy/current…isromanien.htm
(paragraphs 43 and 160)

 

[canadianguy1143]

Remington, it is my Catholic obligation under the Spiritual works of Mercy to say that you must apologise for falsely accusing others of lying with regard to forced hand holding. You are not God and can’t possibly know all that goes on in every Mass. Henceforth you can’t legitimately say that its an invention.

Apologize to them immediately.

 

[CalifCatholic]

Originally Posted by CalifCatholic

…and that is a most dangerous position to take. Justice is supposed to be blind, and applied to everyone evenly without passion or predjudice. You are introducing “passion” into the deliberations, which is a direct violation of the Justices’ office.

And what happens someday, if, say, atheists or Muslims were to become the majority, and they “feel” anger towards Catholics for some reason or other. You go to court, and you end up in jail because you didn’t get a fair trial, because of the judge’s “feelings” towards you. What then? “Feelings” in the old South are why so many blacks were wrongly sent to prisons, because courts let “feelings” interfere with application of the law.

You are DEAD WRONG on this matter, and our “feelings” have nothing to do with whether we can or cannot violate the rubrics of the Liturgy

 

[Remington]

You are incorrect sir. To introduce something into the Liturgy that is not there is a violation.

I have heard the argument that the rubrics also do not say NOT to old hands and therefore it is acceptable. That is faulty logic. The rubics do not say that we can’t stand on our heads during the Lords Prayer either. Can we deduce from this that is is okay to stand on our heads?

The Vatican is clear on this matter: The public worship of the Church is no one’s private property, and no one has the right to veer from the rubrics. Or perhaps you think that everone from Karl Keating to te Pope doesn’t know what they are talking about

LOL!! You are so sure of yourself, aren’t you? You couldn’t be more wrong.

Nothing is added to the liturgy when people hold hands. As for logic, why would it be faulty for people in the pews to hold hands as long as it was not specifically prohibited given that they are NOT adding to the liturgy? Surely you can do better than the stand-on-your-head shtick?

Simply put you’re not the arbiter of what is allowed and what is not allowed. The Church is. People like you simply stir the pot, confident that you have all the answers and to put it nicely, you don’t. You struggle so hard to control the actions of others – something you have no authority to do and it does nothing but feed the anger and bitterness you feel at Mass. In turn some of the hand-holders of the world dig-in just as deep as you have, ready to fight you for as long as you care to or can.

Let go already and take a step forward. Control what you can control – yourself. Ignore the hand holders. The holding hands matter is neither your responsibility nor is it any of your business. It also an area where you have neither authority nor expertise. Leave this to the Church in the form of your bishop and pastor locally. Focus your help in the form of prayer.

 

[CalifCatholic]

LOL!! You are so sure of yourself, aren’t you?..

Yep, because I actually read facts, and I don’t substitute them with “feelings”. Its a proccess that I highly recommend

Not to mention the fact that I am in agreement with the owner of this site - Karl Keating - and with the Pope, and with most people in between.

 

[Remington]

In his book, Mass Confusion, Jimmy Akin says the following:

“The Holy See has not ruled directly on this issue. In a response to a query, however, the Holy See stated that holding hands “is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics” (Notitiae 11 [1975] 226, DOL 1502 n. R29). For this reason, no one can be required to hold hands during the Our Father.”
(Nor is the orans posture in the rubrics.)

The U.S. Status:
People hold hands during the Our Father (p. 161)—Discouraged
(*Mass Confusion *Appendix Three pg. 234)

In the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal the only posture specified during the Our Father is standing.
GIRM: usccb.org/liturgy/current…isromanien.htm
(paragraphs 43 and 160)

So? Jimmy Akin isn’t the Catholic Church nor is he a bishop to my knowledge…

 

[CalifCatholic]

So? Jimmy Akin isn’t the Catholic Church nor is he a bishop to my knowledge…

For Americans, the rubrics are laid out by the USCCB. And if yoiu re-read what you just quoted:

The U.S. Status:
People hold hands during the Our Father (p. 161)—Discouraged
(*Mass Confusion *Appendix Three pg. 234)

The USCCB “discourages” the practice. You do know what the USCCB is, don’t you?

 

[Remington]

…and that is a most dangerous position to take. Justice is supposed to be blind, and applied to everyone evenly without passion or predjudice. You are introducing “passion” into the deliberations, which is a direct violation of the Justices’ office.

And what happens someday, if, say, atheists or Muslims were to become the majority, and they “feel” anger towards Catholics for some reason or other. You go to court, and you end up in jail because you didn’t get a fair trial, because of the judge’s “feelings” towards you. What then? “Feelings” in the old South are why so many blacks were wrongly sent to prisons, because courts let “feelings” interfere with application of the law.

You are DEAD WRONG on this matter, and our “feelings” have nothing to do with whether we can or cannot violate the rubrics of the Liturgy

Again you are wrong, “DEAD” or otherwise. You are also getting angry which has no place on these forums. I said (and I quote)

"I pray to God that Supreme Court Justices FEEL when they are deliberating on a case before them…"

The LAST thing we need is a group of computers/robots spitting out legal opinions. You’re simply fabricating when you state “You are introducing “passion” into the deliberations, which is a direct violation of the Justices’ office.”

 

[Remington]

Yep, because I actually read facts, and I don’t substitute them with “feelings”. Its a proccess that I highly recommend

Not to mention the fact that I am in agreement with the owner of this site - Karl Keating - and with the Pope, and with most people in between.

That’s the fallacy. You think you know what the Pope has decreed with respect to the holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer and you do not, no matter how sure you feel you do.

 

[CalifCatholic]

Remington, it is my Catholic obligation under the Spiritual works of Mercy to say that you must apologise for falsely accusing others of lying with regard to forced hand holding. You are not God and can’t possibly know all that goes on in every Mass. Henceforth you can’t legitimately say that its an invention.

Apologize to them immediately.

I agree. Polemics and false accusations have no place here.

 

[Remington]

For Americans, the rubrics are laid out by the USCCB. And if yoiu re-read what you just quoted:

The U.S. Status:
People hold hands during the Our Father (p. 161)—Discouraged
(*Mass Confusion *Appendix Three pg. 234)

The USCCB “discourages” the practice. You do know what the USCCB is, don’t you?

No.

The USCCB has no authority to define the Mass. It can only make recommendations to the Holy See.

 

[CalifCatholic]

No.

The USCCB has no authority to define the Mass. It can only make recommendations to the Holy See.

I suggest that you put that POV forth in the “Ask The Apologist” section and see what response you get.

In fact, each country has variations on the Liturgy, and they are laid out by their respective conferences. For example, in America, we kneel during parts of the Mass, while in other countries they do not.

So you are wrong yet again. May I suggest you take a rest, because you are allowing hysterics to cloud your judgement, and your posts are becoming borderline flames

 

[Michael_Francis]

Closed pending mod review.