Holding hands at the Our Father

[Newbie2]

If you had really read my post you would see that I had done what you prescribe. It doesn’t always work.

Further more, we do not do things at Mass because we like them. We do them because the Church in her wisdom require them. The Church has NEVER given permission for holding hands at Mass, much less requiring that we do it. We should not be doing it. It is an abuse, although not a grave one.

Sorry, must have missed that in your post.

It does work if you’re persistant. You just have to “out-stubborn” the stubborn ones. Coughing or wet-sneezing into your hands works quite well too.

Abuse? I’d say not, but I won’t argue with those who think it to be one.

 

[mcmitton]

I generally hold hands with my husband or dear friend is she’s next to me, but complete strangers grab my hand too. I’d rather not hold hands, since I have my very own personal germs and don’t want any new ones before I receive the Eucharist on the hand.

Our congregation is a handholding one, even to the point of stretching over to the next pew to grasp a hand, and to stretch/walk into the aisle to grasp a hand across the aisle. I think the idea of an unbroken chain of hand holding is ridiculous, and certainly puts folks into uncomfortable postures - leaning over pews, stretching … This string of handholding seems to snake through the whole assembly. What happens to the holy time of praying the Perfect Prayer taught to us by Christ?

For myself, the Eucharist is our UNITY, handholding is not. Praying together, singing together, hearing the Word together, offering together, sharing the Eucharist together gives me Unity.

May you all be blessed during this most holy time of celebrating the birth of our Lord.

 

[Pug]

Very true. But I question the veracity of the claims where people are physically forced to hold someone’s hand in an attempt to give legitimacy the notion that hand holding is somehow wrong and therefore should be banned.

If you don’t want to hold hands, don’t. Just try to be gracious about it.

I am not attempting to support that it should be banned, since I don’t know if it should be banned. I *am *somewhat interested in being sure everyone out in the pews knows about what they are and are not required to do during mass. I suspect not everyone does, as I stated in my first post on the thread. Though in my parish I think most have caught on in the last seven or ten years that they are not required to take or offer hands.

I see no intrinsic connection between having been physically forced to hold a hand and whether or not hand holding is wrong, so to that extent I understand your concern. But not all of us who have felt forced are using that to say it should be banned. So, perhaps you do not question veracity in my case.

Just to be clear, I have felt forced socially. I wouldn’t say physically.

 

[utah_rose]

What are your feelings on this?

At ours they hold hands and also raise them in the end, but I don’t. I am not a charismatic (although I don’t condemn this) but I just don’t think that this is the time and place for this.

From what I understand this is not mandatory but not forbidden either.

I get more upset at the kiss of peace as people get out of their pews and the priest comes doesn from the altar and shakes people’s hands.

There is no excuse for this as we have a gathering place in the reception of the Church where greetings could be exchanged.

I wish that the Pope had moved this to the end of the Mass, rather before the Eucharist.

 

[Remington]

Sounds to(o) Protestant and not Catholic like We need to conduct ourselves in a worthy manner at all time in His priesence

 

[Thoma25]

As was said previously, when at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we should conduct ourselves quietly and reverently. Our focus should be on Christ: physically present in the Tabernacle, the person in whom the priest is acting, and as He is being confected at the Altar. Chatting, waving, hand holding, and other “congregation-specific” actions, especially before and after the Consecration, take away from the sacral quality of the Mass and turn our focus back to ourselves instead of to Christ.

I also agree with the poster that says that all too often, we appear to be at a Protestant service where clapping, shouting, etc make it appear as though we’re huddled around a campfire rather than before the altar of the Lord.

Also, I’d like to add that I’ve been “forced” to hold hands before, too. Certainly I could have made a scene by jerking my hand away, glaring at them, then running away… but how respectful is that to Christ and the Sacrifice? Call it what you will: forced, cajoled, pressured, persuaded, the reality is that it does happen.

 

[exoflare]

It’s all more new-age feel-good garbage. (thanks again, hippie generation)

What I don’t get is why the people who defend this pointless novelty never reverse their own question on themselves… It’s always “you must convince me you have a good reason for being AGAINST it!” even though it was never a part of the Mass in the first place. The burden is actually on them to sufficiently explain why they treat it as being so important.

 

[Remington]

As was said previously, when at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we should conduct ourselves quietly and reverently. Our focus should be on Christ: physically present in the Tabernacle, the person in whom the priest is acting, and as He is being confected at the Altar. Chatting, waving, hand holding, and other “congregation-specific” actions, especially before and after the Consecration, take away from the sacral quality of the Mass and turn our focus back to ourselves instead of to Christ.

How utterly offensive. You’re insinuating that hand-holding must be “Chatting, waving, hand holding, and other ‘congregation-specific’ actions” in a weak attempt to sell your personal preference. Do you realize that people see though that bunkum and in some cases they’ll dig-in and resist just as hard as you obviously have?

I also agree with the poster that says that all too often, we appear to be at a Protestant service where clapping, shouting, etc make it appear as though we’re huddled around a campfire rather than before the altar of the Lord.

That smacks so strongly of ignorance and bigotry. Just horrible. May God help you if you ever attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at a parish influenced by the Charismatic Renewal – a recognized charism/movement within the Catholic Church.

Also, I’d like to add that I’ve been “forced” to hold hands before, too. Certainly I could have made a scene by jerking my hand away, glaring at them, then running away… but how respectful is that to Christ and the Sacrifice? Call it what you will: forced, cajoled, pressured, persuaded, the reality is that it does happen.

If so many people weren’t “forced” to hold hands I guess the bellyaching would have to come to an end?

 

[Remington]

It’s all more new-age feel-good garbage. (thanks again, hippie generation)

What I don’t get is why the people who defend this pointless novelty never reverse their own question on themselves… It’s always “you must convince me you have a good reason for being AGAINST it!” even though it was never a part of the Mass in the first place. The burden is actually on them to sufficiently explain why they treat it as being so important.

I feel badly for those so obsessed with things like hand-holding. People in this very thread have admitted how it upsets them and that’s really their problem. Even if the Church did not allow the practice it’s none of them business what other people do. It’s sad they lack the grace and the state of mind to simply ignore those they find offensive. Better yet, come to peace with the fact that these people aren’t doing anything dastardly or even prohibited.

BUT you say they grab my hand(s)! While I think that’s largely a bunch of balderdash (largely an excuse to be upset about hand holding at the Mass in the first place), people have offered a million and one ways to avoid having to hold hands. Pick your favorite and use it already and free yourself of this burden. If you continue to try and control others in this sorta setting and you’re going to spend your life frustrated and ultimately very bitter.

I gotta say, I see those tense and clearly angry people at Mass who are upset with the things other people do. Get over it already and focus on God. If it’s an ACTUAL abuse then take action otherwise pray for the grace to free yourself from these niggling irritants.

NB: Every time I see Jay Leno at a car show he has his left hand shoved in his pants pocket while carrying a big hubcap with the other hand. I finally had the nerve to ask him about it once. He said he does it because he doesn’t always want to feel obliged to shake a thousand or two hands every time he goes to a show to check out cars. Maybe some of you can hold your missalette in one hand and a something else in the other?

 

[Lonely_Warrior]

In the Cathedral, which I visit now (The Cathedral of Immaculate Conception of Virgin Mary) this is more an exception than a tradition… Nobody even offered to do such a thing, as far as I know from my humble experience. People only give each other handshakes when priest says “Greet each other with Peace and love”. Not even always, though - often there are too few people at Mass, many empty rows, that reaching each other impossible, without walking around.
My vote is Other. Though I don’t like this, I prefer the short handshakes, which are not uncomfortable as holding hands but give the feeling of communion.

 

[Thoma25]

I can’t help it if proper behavior at Mass seems offensive and bigoted to you. That’s entirely your problem. As for me, I have no problem conducting myself, both internally and externally, in a reverent and worshipful manner when I come before God himself and receive Him Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity at Mass.

The only “bellyaching” I can see here is you entirely overreacting over those Catholics who want to act… well, Catholic when attending Mass, and want the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to be said according to the rubrics, without innovations or abuses, in a manner becoming to the occasion. Perhaps if everyone showed up at Mass, chatted for a bit, held hands to make each other feel good, and then sauntered up to receive Our Lord in sweatpants as though they were taking a bit of bread or a cookie, then your “bellyaching” would end.

Until then, however, we must bear the wrathful indignation of those who would rather play a guitar, sing a few 70’s songs, then hold hands for group support. LOL

 

[braumeister]

Actually there are many rubrics there for the people. All the responses by the people, when to kneel, the cross on the forehead, lips, and heart before the Gospel.

Yes, but the people are not bound by them as the priest is. That’s why at many EF masses you have people doing their own thing (rosary, personal devotions, etc). No disrespect to the EF. I have much respect for it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yes, but the people are not bound by them as the priest is. That’s why at many EF masses you have people doing their own thing (rosary, personal devotions, etc). No disrespect to the EF. I have much respect for it.

Because that is the tradition of the EF, the responses were originally only to be made by the servers. Later, much recently actually, those have been moved to the people.

Traditionally the priest said the Mass (EF) for the laity. The bells were present to tell the people to stop their private devotions and to pay attention as something important was happening in the Mass (EF).

With Vatican II the Church wanted more active participation from the laity. As you said, there are not many rubrics for the people but I disagree with you that the people are not bound to them. They should be kneeling, they should be responding.

The CDWDS has ruled that the people are not to use the orans position for praying the Our Father like the priest does, so I would say that they do matter.

 

[braumeister]

Because that is the tradition of the EF, the responses were originally only to be made by the servers. Later, much recently actually, those have been moved to the people.

Traditionally the priest said the Mass (EF) for the laity. The bells were present to tell the people to stop their private devotions and to pay attention as something important was happening in the Mass (EF).

With Vatican II the Church wanted more active participation from the laity. As you said, there are not many rubrics for the people but I disagree with you that the people are not bound to them. They should be kneeling, they should be responding.

The CDWDS has ruled that the people are not to use the orans position for praying the Our Father like the priest does, so I would say that they do matter.

I wouldn’t admit that they are bond under sin as the priest is. I agree they should be kneeling, standing, etc when it’s called for. My point is it’s not as grave of a matter for the congregation not to strictly follow the rubrics where as it would be for the priest. I could be wrong. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Remington]

I can’t help it if proper behavior at Mass seems offensive and bigoted to you. That’s entirely your problem. As for me, I have no problem conducting myself, both internally and externally, in a reverent and worshipful manner when I come before God himself and receive Him Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity at Mass.

Thankfully you’re not the arbiter of what “proper behavior” is at the Mass. You’re also not my judge or anyone else I know.

The only “bellyaching” I can see here is you entirely overreacting over those Catholics who want to act… well, Catholic when attending Mass, and want the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to be said according to the rubrics, without innovations or abuses, in a manner becoming to the occasion. Perhaps if everyone showed up at Mass, chatted for a bit, held hands to make each other feel good, and then sauntered up to receive Our Lord in sweatpants as though they were taking a bit of bread or a cookie, then your “bellyaching” would end.

I realize you aren’t grasping but what I am saying, else you wouldn’t be making the comments you are. As an academic exercise why not explain how you get upset about people holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer to a reputable therapist. Explain how you feel the Church does not allow this, etc. See what insight they provide.

Until then, however, we must bear the wrathful indignation of those who would rather play a guitar, sing a few 70’s songs, then hold hands for group support. LOL

There you go again. How did a guitar and 70’s songs get into this discussion?

 

[Remington]

Because that is the tradition of the EF, the responses were originally only to be made by the servers. Later, much recently actually, those have been moved to the people.

Traditionally the priest said the Mass (EF) for the laity. **The bells were present to tell the people to stop their private devotions and to pay attention as something important was happening in the Mass **(EF).

With Vatican II the Church wanted more active participation from the laity. As you said, there are not many rubrics for the people but I disagree with you that the people are not bound to them. They should be kneeling, they should be responding.

The CDWDS has ruled that the people are not to use the orans position for praying the Our Father like the priest does, so I would say that they do matter.

That’s absolutely false. Bells were rung during the Mass primarily to let people OUTSIDE of the Church (sanctus bells were originally the largest bell in the belfry) know something miraculous was taking place and to make a joyous noise to the Lord as an offering of sorts.

 

[Newbie2]

That’s absolutely false. Bells were rung during the Mass primarily to let people OUTSIDE of the Church (sanctus bells were originally the largest bell in the belfry) know something miraculous was taking place and to make a joyous noise to the Lord as an offering of sorts.

I think he might have meant the little bells in the sanctuary rather that those that could be heard outside. But bells are not our focus…

I agree, Remington, that the complaints of being “forced” to hold hands are…perhaps…exaggerated. But I’ve never felt forced or been next to a pesky person either. What I’ve found to work is just keeping my hands folded in front of me, which I do when I have a cold or other sort of bug.

Anyway, it’s a matter of perception. I can see that some people do not want to be “bothered” with even being offered to hold the hand next to them, and for some of them, it’s really problematic. But, methinks, that problem originates with them. They know that hands are held in that parish and they need to either get over it or accept that it is going to continue to happen unless the priest changes things in that parish…whether they choose to hold hands or not.

Perhaps another suggestion for those who feel “forced” is just to politely say to the other person, “I don’t feel comfortable holding hands during the Our Father”. No, it may be that one should not have to say that, but one has to deal with the reality of the situation.

 

[Thoma25]

Thankfully you’re not the arbiter of what “proper behavior” is at the Mass. You’re also not my judge or anyone else I know.

Thankfully, you’re not the arbiter of what “proper behavior” is as Mass either, nor are you my judge. So I suppose you can nix those outlandish comments regarding bigotry and the like you made earlier. You know, since you’re not the arbiter of proper behavior or any kind of judge. If not, then you’re just a hypocrite and you’re on my ignore list.

 

[vera_dicere]

I’m not a touchy feely person. I really don’t like it. People have forced me to do it too. And quite frankly, I don’t want someone’s sticky, goodness only knows where it’s been hand, grabbing mine.

In the parish I’m from the charismatic Catholics brought it in, after seeing it done, I’m guessing, in non-Catholic Christian churches. But I’m in a much more conservative parish now and its just unheard of.

The other thing i’ve seen is people holding their hands up or out during the Our Father and closing their eyes. Again, that seems to stem from a non-Catholic Christian tradition.

WIth that said, I don’t have a problem with it from any kind of technical slant, I just don’t expect people to force me to do it, my family do, but I don’t approve of strangers grabbing me.

 

[Remington]

Just because you have never had it happen to you does not make it preposterous. I take serious offense at these repeated statements by you, because it clearly indicates that you accuse me (and ByzCath) of lying. I know that I am not lying and I believe ByzCath is not lying. Your lack of experience in this matter does not mean that no one has experienced it. You need to apologize.

I seriously think that the moderators need to lock this thread and, once again, put it on moratorium

I find it preposterous that people are “forced” to hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer. I think the legend of forced hand holding exists largely so people can continue to discuss the “problem” of hand holding.

You suggest I “lack experience” simply because I don’t accept the legend of forced hand holding and that’s simply not true.

That said in the extremely rare instance where someone is actually “forced” to hold hands, simply employ one of the many, many solutions people have offered here and elsewhere and be done with the issue once and for all.

One thing some people need to face is that it’s not OK to get upset about other peoples’ actions in situations like this. In essence it’s none of your business – it’s not up to you to control them. It’s their business and that of your pastor. If you feel frustration, if you feel anger then it’s on you and it’s you that needs to seek a solution within what you can control – namely yourself.