Holding hands during mass for Our Father

[Dicerning]

Community worship is that catch-all phrase used by liturgical innovators to go and introduce changes and silly garbage into the liturgy.

“Community” is an ecclesiastical buzz word in itself.

I have found that the more Orthodox in practice Churches the word “community” is not found and in the more Liberal churches the word “community” is used in almost every sentence of conversation.

In days gone by (like the last 35 years) the prosgressives inserted this 1960s secular culture term into our CHurch.

For some modernists the term “community” was injected into our CHurch terminology in part to destroy the concept of personal and individual sin. The more focus on “community” the less focus on personal culpability. Certainly in some areas this has really taken hold and the bad guy downstairs is really happy.

In places where this “community” concept has really taken root one can find the Pater noster practically mandated with hands stretched across aisles and around the sanctuary.

It is these same places that the confessionals have been RIPPED out and the sacrament is by appointment and celebrated in …you guessed it…“community”.

Remember this though…at the last judgement each an everyone of us is going to be ALONE and naked before god. No one to hold our hand.

 

[Archangelum]

Maybe we could all hold hands with illegal aliens during the “community worship”, held during sunday “eucharist event”? Before that, we could attend a “eucharistic worship happening” and maybe pray the community beads, once known as a rosary, before that? After all, we can’t trample on other people’s cultural values.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Maybe we could all hold hands with illegal aliens during the “community worship”, held during sunday “eucharist event”? Before that, we could attend a “eucharistic worship happening” and maybe pray the community beads, once known as a rosary, before that? After all, we can’t trample on other people’s cultural values.

Oh, no, you misspoke.

You mean “migrant workers” at the Sunday “Eucharist celebration”.

And, why limit ourselves to beads? Let’s make them be people! We can make a human chain of community beads!

End time as a modernist.

Excuse me, I have to go vomit, and pray a rosary (or 150) to cleanse myself.

 

[George14]

Reading the posts here reminds me of –

WHY DON’T YOU TELL ME HOW YOU ***REALLY ***FEEL?

Wunnerful.

How unique everyone - each with his own “name” in heaven.

That’s one thing we’ll discover [if we haven’t already] – the individuality of the Sons of God - each with his own personality, each with his own perspective, each with his own identity, his own gifts, his own difference from everyone else, but still “in the image of God.” Wonderful beyond words…

What’s in a name? We find out when we get to see our OWN names for the first time when we get to heaven!

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Reading the posts here reminds me of –

WHY DON’T YOU TELL ME HOW YOU ***REALLY ***FEEL?

Would you like to know?

I hate it. Why can’t the Catholic Mass be just that, the Catholic Mass. It’s written down in the GIRM, and in all the books in every sacristy in every Catholic Church around the world. Why can’t we just have THAT WHICH IS PRINTED!? What is so terribly wrong with that. Why are we so intent on CHANGING the Mass to fulfill the needs of some imbecile’s “feelings”. We should not be adding to it to make us feel better.

I think someone else posted earlier, but what does holding hands add to the worship of God?
The answer is nothing. It’s already a communal prayer, and we’re already at Mass, which is the Church’s public liturgy.

Why do some feel the need to add more, when enough is already there!?

 

[George14]

My reply above is not about those who wish to do different stuff during mass. It was about those posting HERE about their reaction to the aberrations and stuff that does go on at mass. Profound worship is usually quite understated, IMO, - the opposite of the showy “watch me” demonstration of those with agendas.

This is NOT to put down genuine heart-felt celebration, such as dance, great music, exuberant hymns, etc. They have their place, for sure. Big time. Benedict XVI has explicitly praised Beethoven’s 9th Symphony, Ode To Joy, on that very subject. To do that work justice requires, or profits from, a huge over-size orchestra and a large choral assembly: to be a part of that is a bit of what we’ll be experiencing in heaven, I do believe. (I was a classically trained musician who came TO Catholicism BECAUSE OF THE PROFOUND BEAUTY of great music. “Mere humans can NOT create such: there had to be someONE greater than man to make those things possible .” - i.e., Beethoven, the great Brahms symphonic works, Chopin, and on and on.)

But there are a lot of things that do not pass the “sniff test” in so much of what we see on TV from religious broadcasting, from overly demonstrative acts of piety, and from “y’all hold hands!” Actually, they are quite the opposite of what they purport to be: they smack of sentimentality. (My music teacher reminded me of the polarity difference between “sentiment” and “sentimentality.” THAT is the nature or essence of the “sniff test.”)

 

[benedictgal]

I am reminded of what the Secretary to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments observed regarding the loss of the sacred. His comments are certainly approriate to the discussion at hand:

In a socio-cultural context that tends to reduce the importance given to the role of the divine in human life and which gives pride of place to that which is essentially human and “this worldly”, the danger in positing a so called art of celebrating, to liturgy, in a purely humanistic sense is not minimal. Indeed, if Ars Celebrandi is to be understood as something based on human skills only, then, we have missed the point altogether. Whatever serves as the foundation for creative human art and skills, cannot be ipso facto transferred to Liturgy. But in some circles any
acceptance of the term ars celebrandi is interpreted to mean a glorification of a sense of horizontalism.

In other words, when we hold hands, we make ourselves the focal point of the prayer, directing it at ourselves instead of Our Father.

There are those who seem to think that local custom plays an important role. However, “local custom” is not codified in the rubrics. Hand-holding is not. It is an idiosyncratic innovation that has no organic development within the liturgical tradition of the West (let alone the East).

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Would you like to know?

I hate it. Why can’t the Catholic Mass be just that, the Catholic Mass. It’s written down in the GIRM, and in all the books in every sacristy in every Catholic Church around the world. ** Why can’t we just have THAT WHICH IS PRINTED!? ** What is so terribly wrong with that. Why are we so intent on CHANGING the Mass to fulfill the needs of some imbecile’s “feelings”. We should not be adding to it to make us feel better.

A few reasons.
There is no posture prescribed for the congregation during the Lord’s Prayer–if you forbid hand holding, it would be reasonable to forbid folding hands, striking the breast, or even making the sign of the cross, if it is not indicated.

The Church has said that it does not want rigid regulation of the posture of the congregation, unless it is a specific instruction.

If no one can change the instructions, forbidding something on your own authority is just as forbidden as compelling a posture.

It is just not up to anyone to attempt to force someone to hold hands, or to forbid it.

Lux

 

[Newbie2]

Good point.

Let’s ban people crossing themselves after receiving communion too; that’s not prescribed, is it? Why cross yourself when you’ve just received Christ into your own body? Isn’t that somewhat horizontal too? “Blessing” yourself? Attempting to add something to the most sacred thing that we can receive?

(Just a hint of sarcasm here for effect. )

Perhaps this is a topic for another thread…

 

[happymommy]

I think there is a lot of, I don’t want to do that, so that means it’s not right for anyone. If I’m not comfortable then it’s just not right. I don’t want to come out of my comfort zone. I go to Church, but I don’t want to talk to anyone or have to make any contact with anyone. Let me put in my time and go home. I hope that’s not your church experience because if it is, you are really missing out on what the church has to offer. I see it all the time, people won’t even smile at you after mass, just put their heads down and out the door they go. I don’t think that is what God wants for us and I don’t think it’s going to help you in the long run. Now as far as holding hands goes, if you don’t want too, don’t do it. Don’t want to watch others do it. Close your eyes and focus on what you are saying. You say that those of us who do this are putting the focus on ourselves, I’m not thinking about myself or even my husband, I’m praying the words that Jesus gave us and we are doing it as a family unit. If you are watching and getting upset then you are not paying attention to your own prayers and I think you are focused more on what other people are doing, so I think the problem is with you. Is this really what our salvation is about, to hold hands or not. Our salvation is in Jesus Christ, that’s who I focus on in and out of church. Our Bishop suggested years ago that we should hold our hands up while saying the Our Father. I do, but I’m either holding my husband’s hand or one of my children’s. And we are not alone in doing this. The Bishop was just at our Parish last weekend and he didn’t say anything about it when I talked to him after mass. I suppose I shouldn’t hold my two year old while praying either. I bet I’m distracting someone. Next it will be that children shouldn’t be in mass, because at some point I do have to talk to or direct them and that is taking my focus off of Christ. Sometimes I even explain what Father is doing so they get more out of the mass and understand what is going on, instead of just going through the motions. I’m sure that’s awful of me. I know we as Catholics should just do it and not give any thought as to why. Just do it because that’s the way we’ve done it for years, don’t know why, doesn’t matter, just do it. Well, I want more for myself and my family. I want my kids to love their faith and love going to mass and not do it just because it’s tradition. I don’t want them to grow up to be grumpy, old Catholics who are just putting their time in and are afraid of anything changing. That’s not Christianity, that’s a chore, another thing marked off the list of what I have to do this week.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

A few reasons.
There is no posture prescribed for the congregation during the Lord’s Prayer–if you forbid hand holding, it would be reasonable to forbid folding hands, striking the breast, or even making the sign of the cross, if it is not indicated.

The Church has said that it does not want rigid regulation of the posture of the congregation, unless it is a specific instruction.

If no one can change the instructions, forbidding something on your own authority is just as forbidden as compelling a posture.

It is just not up to anyone to attempt to force someone to hold hands, or to forbid it.

Lux

My problem is that it was introduced into the liturgy by the faithful with no tradition whatsoever.

Where in the last 2000 years of the Church have the faithful ever held hand and raised them up while saying the Our Father in Mass?

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

I think there is a lot of, I don’t want to do that, so that means it’s not right for anyone. If I’m not comfortable then it’s just not right. I don’t want to come out of my comfort zone. I go to Church, but I don’t want to talk to anyone or have to make any contact with anyone. Let me put in my time and go home. I hope that’s not your church experience because if it is, you are really missing out on what the church has to offer. I see it all the time, people won’t even smile at you after mass, just put their heads down and out the door they go. I don’t think that is what God wants for us and I don’t think it’s going to help you in the long run. Now as far as holding hands goes, if you don’t want too, don’t do it. Don’t want to watch others do it. Close your eyes and focus on what you are saying. You say that those of us who do this are putting the focus on ourselves, I’m not thinking about myself or even my husband, I’m praying the words that Jesus gave us and we are doing it as a family unit. If you are watching and getting upset then you are not paying attention to your own prayers and I think you are focused more on what other people are doing, so I think the problem is with you. Is this really what our salvation is about, to hold hands or not. Our salvation is in Jesus Christ, that’s who I focus on in and out of church. Our Bishop suggested years ago that we should hold our hands up while saying the Our Father. I do, but I’m either holding my husband’s hand or one of my children’s. And we are not alone in doing this. The Bishop was just at our Parish last weekend and he didn’t say anything about it when I talked to him after mass. I suppose I shouldn’t hold my two year old while praying either. I bet I’m distracting someone. Next it will be that children shouldn’t be in mass, because at some point I do have to talk to or direct them and that is taking my focus off of Christ. Sometimes I even explain what Father is doing so they get more out of the mass and understand what is going on, instead of just going through the motions. I’m sure that’s awful of me. I know we as Catholics should just do it and not give any thought as to why. Just do it because that’s the way we’ve done it for years, don’t know why, doesn’t matter, just do it. Well, I want more for myself and my family. I want my kids to love their faith and love going to mass and not do it just because it’s tradition. I don’t want them to grow up to be grumpy, old Catholics who are just putting their time in and are afraid of anything changing. That’s not Christianity, that’s a chore, another thing marked off the list of what I have to do this week.

Where does this act come from? As I said in my post above, what’s the basis for this hand holding business?

It’s an aberration in the liturgical posture of the faithful.

And, in addition to that, what, objectively, does it add to the worship of God?

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Well said Happy Mommy,

I agree that if you don’t like it, just don’t do it., but do not condemn anyone on a personal interpretation of some document. And certainly derision is a very poor way to resolve a difference of opinion.

Some of these posts are really not demonstrating Christian charity.

Lux

 

[happymommy]

Where does this act come from? As I said in my post above, what’s the basis for this hand holding business?

It’s an aberration in the liturgical posture of the faithful.

And, in addition to that, what, objectively, does it add to the worship of God?

Where does it say we can’t or shouldn’t?

“Why are we so intent on CHANGING the Mass to fulfill the needs of some imbecile’s “feelings”. We should not be adding to it to make us feel better.” This is a very nice Christian statement by the way. I’m going to assume you are one of the “grumpy, Catholics” I wrote about. I bet you are just a blessing to your church community.

My husband and I have been holding hands while praying since before we had our children. It’s what we do. I don’t think we are alone in this because there are other families in our church, many of them, that also hold hands. It’s just how we pray. There are some that don’t hold hands, there are some who don’t raise their hands, like the Bishop suggested. Some just stand there and don’t pray. I don’t care what they do, I just don’t know why others worry so much about what we are doing. I’m not trying to hold that hands of the other families, just mine.

 

[MrS]

My problem is that it was introduced into the liturgy by the faithful with no tradition whatsoever.

Where in the last 2000 years of the Church have the faithful ever held hand and raised them up while saying the Our Father in Mass?

Exactly

And that is what makes it nothing more than an innovation.

And it gives another example of “…consider the source…”

.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Where does it say we can’t or shouldn’t?

“Why are we so intent on CHANGING the Mass to fulfill the needs of some imbecile’s “feelings”. We should not be adding to it to make us feel better.” This is a very nice Christian statement by the way. I’m going to assume you are one of the “grumpy, Catholics” I wrote about. I bet you are just a blessing to your church community.

My husband and I have been holding hands while praying since before we had our children. It’s what we do. I don’t think we are alone in this because there are other families in our church, many of them, that also hold hands. It’s just how we pray. There are some that don’t hold hands, there are some who don’t raise their hands, like the Bishop suggested. Some just stand there and don’t pray. I don’t care what they do, I just don’t know why others worry so much about what we are doing. I’m not trying to hold that hands of the other families, just mine.

Why are you holding hands? Where does this come from? And, again, what does this contribute to the worship of God at His Holy Sacrifice, the Mass?

I would like to consider myself a blessing to the parish I am a part of. Even though they do things that I severely disagree with (like ignoring some of the very important rubrics), I still tough it out, and altar serve. Without me, there’d be one less orthodox Catholic serving at the altar.

But, my contribution to the parish means nothing in this topic.

So, again, please answer my questions.

 

[happymommy]

Exactly

And that is what makes it nothing more than an innovation.

And it gives another example of “…consider the source…”

.

What exactly do you mean by “consider the source” ?

Are you suggesting that I’m not as Catholic as you or that my faith isn’t as strong? Or is that I don’t love the faith as much and don’t respect the tradtions? If this is what you mean, then that all sounds pretty pompous to me and not the attitude of a Christian!

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

The Church has remained neutral when asked.

This is her position, and it is not up to any individual to prescribe or forbid it.

It is a personal preference. If you don’t like it, just don’t do it, but nastiness should never be an option.

Lux

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

What exactly do you mean by “consider the source” ?

Are you suggesting that I’m not as Catholic as you or that my faith isn’t as strong? Or is that I don’t love the faith as much and don’t respect the tradtions? If this is what you mean, then that all sounds pretty pompous to me and not the attitude of a Christian!

I would venture to say he is referring to its origins in protestant services?

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

The Church has remained neutral when asked.

This is her position, and it is not up to any individual to prescribe or forbid it.

It is a personal preference. If you don’t like it, just don’t do it, but nastiness should never be an option.

Lux

Then if it is all “fine and dandy”, there will be no harm in showing me where it came from, what it contributes to the worship of God, and why it is done.

These three questions have not been answered. Rather, my piety, my intentions, and my contributions, all not pertaining to this question, have come into question.