Holding hands during mass for Our Father

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

What would you do:

You sit down in a restaurant and order a cheeseburger. You say “I want a burger on a bun with cheese. I want nothing added to it.”
The server brings you your cheeseburger. You look at it, and it has mustard.
You bring this to the server’s attention.
The server says “but you never specifically said ‘no mustard’ so I brought you what you ordered. There’s only a little mustard anyway”

Would you accept that? Would you be rude to send it back to the kitchen?

Fr David,

I am very surprised that you would make this comparison. The instructions for Mass are not about our will, nor are we to attempt to force our opinion on someone or restrict their worship. Their are very few specific instructions for the congregation, especially about posture. What really baffles me is that those who are most in favor of banning hand- holding during the Lord’s Prayer (when there is no specific instruction), are most in favor of allowing kneeling for Holy Communion (when there is a specific instruction to stand). This clearly indicates to me that this is more about personal preference than faithfulness to the rubrics.

Lux

 

[FrDavid96]

Fr David,

I am very surprised that you would make this comparison. The instructions for Mass are not about our will, nor are we to attempt to force our opinion on someone or restrict their worship. Their are very few specific instructions for the congregation, especially about posture. What really baffles me is that those who are most in favor of banning hand- holding during the Lord’s Prayer (when there is no specific instruction), are most in favor of allowing kneeling for Holy Communion (when there is a specific instruction to stand). This clearly indicates to me that this is more about personal preference than faithfulness to the rubrics.

Lux

The two cannot be compared.

The Communion issue has to do with denying someone the Eucharist. I would also say that a priest who denies someone Communion on account of hand-holding would be in the wrong.

The cheeseburger was just a way of illustrating the fact that nothing may be added means “nothing may be added” and does not mean “something may be added” which is the argument being made by those who support hand holding. The plain meaning of the words is clear.

 

[porthos11]

FWIW,

The Our Father prayer makes clear that it is WE in prayer, not “Me.” By this I mean that “we” are all in this together, we support one another, we are all his children collectively. Jesus taught us that loving one another was how we expressed our love for Him–we do not live in isolation: we are interdependent and MUST love one another.

When we hold hands, I do experience this “community of faith, community of worship, community of son-ship.”

I just counted pronouns in the Lord’s Prayer:

There are five “our”; eight “us”; two “we”; and not a single “I” or “me.”

So when we raise our joined hands, I experience and submit my prayer as one of US, praying for all, not just myself…

The only problem is that the Lord’s Prayer is not the time to express unity. The Sign of Peace and Holy Communion is.

 

[George14]

Given that, compared to most, I am fairly well informed about catholic practices, etc., I have to say I have never known that there was any concern about whether hand-holding or not was appropriate. It never crossed my mind, and I suspect that for 99% of the catholic public, it never crosses their minds either.

This is not to deny anything that IS indicated or proper, but simply to speak to the fact that in 60 years I have never heard a yes or no on the subject.

Our new pastor discontinued the “introduce yourself to those around you” before the beginning of Mass that had been the custom, on the grounds that “he thought it distracted from the intentions of the gathering,” but he did not discontinue the hand-holding during the Our Father. So I’m sure that others perceive the same as I do, that somethings are done simply by preference, as opposed to directive.

Where can we find these directives?

Thank you.

 

[FrDavid96]

Given that, compared to most, I am fairly well informed about catholic practices, etc., I have to say I have never known that there was any concern about whether hand-holding or not was appropriate. It never crossed my mind, and I suspect that for 99% of the catholic public, it never crosses their minds either.

This is not to deny anything that IS indicated or proper, but simply to speak to the fact that in 60 years I have never heard a yes or no on the subject.

Our new pastor discontinued the “introduce yourself to those around you” before the beginning of Mass that had been the custom, on the grounds that “he thought it distracted from the intentions of the gathering,” but he did not discontinue the hand-holding during the Our Father. So I’m sure that others perceive the same as I do, that somethings are done simply by preference, as opposed to directive.

Where can we find these directives?

Thank you.

George,
There’s a lot of sources. I’m sure you’re familiar with them, but for the sake of clarity, and our other readers, I’ll list them.

The Second Vatican Council in the document Sacrosanctum Concilium speaks about the “changes” that Vatican II was making to the Mass (the Council did not write the “new” Mass, that came years later). In paragraph 22, the Council said this:
“Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.” This has been repeated over and over again in Church documents having to do with the Liturgy.

The Sacramentary is the large (usually red) book that the priest uses in the Mass. It contains everything that is said and done in the Mass. There is also a document called the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (the GIRM) which explains in more detail just how the Mass is done.

Pope John Paul II issued a document called an Instruction (bearing his own personal approval) Redemptionis Sacramentum (adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html)). The purpose of that document was (in part) to address and lament the fact that so many inappropriate and unauthorized changes are being made in the Mass; and to make clear that these must cease.

All of these documents are binding on the clergy and laity alike.
There are other official documents out there, but these are the “big ones” The only necessary references are the Sacramentary and the current GIRM (it’s been revised a few times over the years); in almost all circumstances.

I suggest you do a web search for Sacrosanctum Concilium (adoremus.org/SacrosanctumConcilium.html) and read it if you haven’t already (most Catholics have not). This document says precisely what Vatican II teaches about the Mass. You will be surprised to learn that what many people claim “Vatican 2 teaches” is the exact opposite of what the Council actually said. It’s not very long.

In short, if you don’t find something (some ritual action) that is allowed in the Mass in the Sacramentary or the GIRM, then it’s not allowed to be added.

 

[ljprevo]

Well I want to add, that I have been to a few churchs that not only do they hold hands, when they say “For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours now and for ever. Amen”

They raise their hands up.

I don’t think holding hands is a bad thing, there really is no right or wrong to it, however I can see where some say “adding” things should not happen. He have holding hands now, now we are seeing the raising of the hands joined. also I have seen people raise their hands when the priest says “Peace be with you”.

I though that there is something that says the faithful are not to mock the gestures of the priest.

 

[FrDavid96]

Well I want to add, that I have been to a few churchs that not only do they hold hands, when they say “For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours now and for ever. Amen”

They raise their hands up.

I don’t think holding hands is a bad thing, there really is no right or wrong to it, however I can see where some say “adding” things should not happen. He have holding hands now, now we are seeing the raising of the hands joined. also I have seen people raise their hands when the priest says “Peace be with you”.

I though that there is something that says the faithful are not to mock the gestures of the priest.

And that last part expressed just why hand-holding is such a problem. First we had hand holding. Then people got so used to it that it ceased to be (in their minds) something new and innovative. It stopped being something “different” and became something “ordinary” (it’s not rebellious if everybody’s doing it) so they had to add more; namely “doing the wave” during the doxology just like we do at high school football games. After a while, this too ceased to be so much of an innovation, so they needed more. Someone said "let’s wave back at the priest when we say ‘and also with you’ " (which I’ve also noticed is sometimes done in a sing-song fashion “and also with YOU”) Yes, it is mimmicking the gestures of the priest, and yes it is specifically forbidden * I suppose after a while, this too will be relegated to the “ordinary” and someone will invent yet some new innovation for the sake of keeping things “fresh” Where will it all end?

• Note that the deacon never does this gesture; even when he does say “The Lord be with you.” In fact, the priest doesn’t even do it before he proclaims the gospel, because at that moment, he is functioning as a deacon in the deacon’s absence.

 

[FrCorey]

the thing I hate is after certain rites the people stand up and clap. I hope the pope brings back the respect to these holy rites. we are not performing a show…

 

[FrDavid96]

the thing I hate is after certain rites the people stand up and clap. I hope the pope brings back the respect to these holy rites. we are not performing a show…

Aaah, but the Mass is a show. It’s entertainment to make us feel good. Don’t you know that dear Father? (I’ll just call you Corey.) What did they teach you in the seminary? Perhaps you need to attend a few workshops to learn how the Mass is realy supposed to be done. I bet you’re one of those priests who just reads from the Sacramentary. Didn’t they tell you it’s just a suggestion? How dare you say that I shouldn’t clap to express my approval of what I’ve just experienced. After all, the priest needs to know that we approve of what he’s done. Do you want him to walk away and think that no one noticed him? He needs to know that he put on a good performance, so why should we deny him that recognition?

 

[benedictgal]

Aaah, but the Mass is a show. It’s entertainment to make us feel good. Don’t you know that dear Father? (I’ll just call you Corey.) What did they teach you in the seminary? Perhaps you need to attend a few workshops to learn how the Mass is realy supposed to be done. I bet you’re one of those priests who just reads from the Sacramentary. Didn’t they tell you it’s just a suggestion? How dare you say that I shouldn’t clap to express my approval of what I’ve just experienced. After all, the priest needs to know that we approve of what he’s done. Do you want him to walk away and think that no one noticed him? He needs to know that he put on a good performance, so why should we deny him that recognition?

You will like what the Secretary to the Congregation for Divine Worship had to say on the matter.

He lamented the fact that the word “sacrifice” is not used as often as it should be. He noted that sometimes we fall into horizontalism in the arts when we forget about the divine. When we make the liturgy “man-centered” then we have failed to have a proper understanding of ars celebrandi as it relates to active participation. This active participation is not confined to external participation. He said that in recent times (and this is the line of the conference) that “Wall Street moved into the sanctuary.”

This means that we have turned it into a gathering and a coming together that has little to no relationship to the divine mystery unfolding before us. This makes us forget that we are not the actors of the liturgy. The real actor in the liturgy is God, Himself. Here, he addressed the priests and seminarians in the group:

We need to be totally absorbed in the priestly action of Christ. We are not the artists. We allow the Lord to be the artist through us. We participate in the order of being. We allow ourselves to be incarnated by Him. He makes us a part of His being and action. We place ourselves in total assimilation with Jesus.

I would add that not only the priest, but, we ourselves, must also be absorbed into the priestly action of Christ because His actions transform us. Holding hands focuses on the horizontal and makes us the center of things, and not the Lord.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Boy we are getting off topic.

As was said many times most instructions are not for the congregation. A member of the congregation cannot add anything to the celebration of the liturgy, and most of the laity have never seen any instructions, so how could they apply?

As was also said many times, if you consider one posture an illicit gesture, you must also forbid every posture which is not mentioned in the instructions (folded hands, striking of the breast, praying the rosary, etc)

These instructions just do not apply to the laity.

And yes, it is quite well known that B XVI prefers the traditional Mass, but he has also said that there are other options. He does prefer kneeling for Holy Communion and reception on the tongue, but has not changed any norms in place.

Lux

 

[FrDavid96]

Boy we are getting off topic.

As was said many times most instructions are not for the congregation. A member of the congregation cannot add anything to the celebration of the liturgy, and most of the laity have never seen any instructions, so how could they apply?

As was also said many times, if you consider one posture an illicit gesture, you must also forbid every posture which is not mentioned in the instructions (folded hands, striking of the breast, praying the rosary, etc)

These instructions just do not apply to the laity.

And yes, it is quite well known that B XVI prefers the traditional Mass, but he has also said that there are other options. He does prefer kneeling for Holy Communion and reception on the tongue, but has not changed any norms in place.

Lux

The instructions do apply to the laity. Granted, most have never actually read them, but one of the roles of the clergy is to explain them; that is, to explain the legitimate liturgical laws of the church and not introduce innovations.

There is a significant difference between gestures which have been part of the Mass from time immemorial, and gestures which have been introduced lately, contrary to the liturgical norms.

The is also a significant difference between the gestures made by an individual, like striking the breast at the “Lord I am not worthy” and a corporate gesture like hand-holding.

I would not forbid an individual to silently pray the rosary during the Mass (discourage it perhaps, in fact most likely depending on the circumstances) but I would certainly forbid a corporate gesture of praying the rosary during the Mass.

All of this back-and-forth about holding hands during the Our Father is not going to make it legitimate. Changes and additions to the Mass are reserved to the Holy See. That fact hasn’t changed, and isn’t likely to change. If and when the Holy See approves hand-holding, I will accept it. Until that happens, supporting hand holding is simply indefensible.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi again,

Until that happens, supporting hand holding is simply indefensible.

First of all, I would like to say that I do not support handholding, but do not agree that it is illegal. Every authentic source has refused to condemn it, even when asked many times.

It certainly is defensible, but obviously not to you

Lux

 

[happymommy]

We hold hands with our children during the Our Father. I don’t see what’s wrong with that. I think it joins us together as a family saying the prayer that Jesus taught us. I don’t think God cares if we are holding hands or not when we pray. Just make sure your heart is in the right place. I don’t think we are distracting anyone or taking away from the mass either. After the Our Father, we offer peace to those around us. We’ve been instructed that if you are ill or not wanting to shake hands due to germs, then make it known, politely, and just say peace be with you. It doesn’t have to be a big deal. The only time I have been distracted by someones behavior in church is this older woman who knows the mass by heart and will say everything with the Priest, that was annoying and I have wondered if she should be doing it. But we just don’t sit near her anymore and that problem was solved for us.

 

[barb_finnegan]

It’s yet another unauthorized adaptation to make the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass look more like a protestant service. Hand holding is nothing but a celebration of human unity when we should be uniting our hearts, minds and souls with the Lord God Almighty. I refuse to engage in it!

Amen, Amen! I can’t stand it myself. That’s why I go the Latin Mass…none of this ‘hand-holding’ nonsense…

 

[barb_finnegan]

In addition, I find the multitudes standing in the pew in the “orans” posture during the Our Father to look like a bunch of potted plants. This is a priestly gesture that should be reserved for the celebrant. …and NO thank you, I do not wish to hear anything about us being a “royal priesthood”. This was not the intent of the scripture. I can’t help but to wonder how many of these people are doing this for show. Can’t people just fold their hands and pray? Again I simply refuse to engage in these “hip” displays of theatrics!

TLM08-Again, you hit the nail on the head! And that’s why I go to the Latin Mass!

Whenever I have gone the NO, I keep my hands clasped before me and my eyes fixed on Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[happymommy]

Amen, Amen! I can’t stand it myself. That’s why I go the Latin Mass…none of this ‘hand-holding’ nonsense…

I grew up in the Presbyterian church, there was no hand holding there. Or smiling or emotion. We were all going to hell and there was nothing we could do about it. It’s one of the reasons I left the church.
We are in Church to worship God and receive Christ. I do think there needs to be respect and quiet, but it’s also such an awesome thing that it should make you happy and want to really rejoice. So if people get more out of Mass by holding the hand of the person next to them, who are you to say it’s wrong! As I said before I don’t think God is going to care if I hold my child’s hand during Mass. I think that there are bigger issues than this. Such as people going to Communion that have not been going to Confession, what about the people who only go to Church on Christmas and Easter, that is far more irratating to me than holding hands and praying.

 

[happymommy]

TLM08-Again, you hit the nail on the head! And that’s why I go to the Latin Mass!

Whenever I have gone the NO, I keep my hands clasped before me and my eyes fixed on Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

That’s fine, no one is going to force you to hold hands, good grief. May I ask if you stay and visit at all after Mass or are you one of the one’s who bolt for the door as soon as you have your blessing? Or there are the people that leave right after Communion and don’t even wait for the blessing. I don’t like that. There seems to be a group of people that think if they put in the 45 mins. get Communion, then they are done and they don’t have to do another Catholic thing for the rest of the week ( my in-laws ) But I guess that is off topic. Maybe we should discuss that sometime. Does it do you any good to come to Church, but not be a part of the Church?

 

[Annemariels]

I have heard many priests - both modern and traditional - say that kneeling before (or is it after?) Communion is not mandatory. What IS mandatory is that we all do the same thing as a sign of unity. (I am a kneeling kinda person and struggle with that)

Anyways, my point is that if we have some of the people holding hands - most (?) of them b/c they feel obligated - and the rest of the people not holding hands, doesn’t that show a lack of unity?

 

[Appleby]

Before Mass begins, we’re asked to greet those around us and if we don’t know them, to introduce ourselves.

That would empty our church faster than yelling “There’s a bomb in the crying room!”

I have attended my church for two years and in that time only two people have ventured to speak to me unless I speak first (and those people to whom I speak blow by me empty-eyed and indifferent the next time they see me.) Forcing them to speak to strangers would probably cause them to die.

For the record, I disagree with exchanging the peace during Mass and also with holding hands with people who have been eating, sneezing, changing their babies, or God knows what with those hands since they washed them last.