Holding hands during mass for Our Father

[Newbie2]

We have the writings of St. Justin Martyr and others who have recorded what went on in the liturgy of the early Church. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Ancient Israel, where most of the early Church grew out of, never prayed in that manner.

You still haven’t shown me any evidence that it didn’t happen. While your assumptions may be valid, they’re still assumptions. Not everything in the early Church was recorded, nor was every liturgical gesture borrowed from Israel. Unless I’m missing something in his readings, I’ve never seen where Justin visited all the local tiny churches and participated in all the local worship meetings of all the Christians at their houses.

I’m not saying it was common, I’m not saying that such a practice happened for sure, just refuting that your negative assertion is based on an assumption, which it is.

I’m not quite sure why you cannot admit that this practice may have occured in the early Church, even though it may not have been widespread or lasting.

I guess it’s not terribly important either way in the long run.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi N2,

Certainly, it really isn’t very important, and definitely does not change the liturgy any more than folded hands or praying the Rosary.

And it really doesn’t matter that some liturgists don’t like it. The bottom line is that it has been around for 30-40 years now, and has not been even criticized, never mind forbidden, even when there was a direct question regarding handholding.

Mentioning other actions which are approved or discouraged does not change this.

Lux

 

[FrDavid96]

You still haven’t shown me any evidence that it didn’t happen. While your assumptions may be valid, they’re still assumptions. Not everything in the early Church was recorded, nor was every liturgical gesture borrowed from Israel. Unless I’m missing something in his readings, I’ve never seen where Justin visited all the local tiny churches and participated in all the local worship meetings of all the Christians at their houses.

I’m not saying it was common, I’m not saying that such a practice happened for sure, just refuting that your negative assertion is based on an assumption, which it is.

I’m not quite sure why you cannot admit that this practice may have occured in the early Church, even though it may not have been widespread or lasting.

I guess it’s not terribly important either way in the long run.

Well look at it this way, there is considerably more evidence that in the early Church people showed up for the Eucharist drunk (1 Cor 11) than there is evidence that they ever engaged in hand-holding.

An argument from silence just doesn’t hold water. A liturgical abuse is a an abuse is an abuse. All the crafty doublespeak won’t change that.

When the Church says nothing can be added the only honest conclusion to that is to say that nothing can be added.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Well look at it this way, there is considerably more evidence that in the early Church people showed up for the Eucharist drunk (1 Cor 11) than there is evidence that they ever engaged in hand-holding.

An argument from silence just doesn’t hold water. A liturgical abuse is a an abuse is an abuse. All the crafty doublespeak won’t change that.

When the Church says nothing can be added the only honest conclusion to that is to say that nothing can be added.

Well, there is no evidence of people touching their toes, and then touching other people’s toes in any commentary on the Church, so… we should introduce this!!



(Warning: This post contains a large amount of sarcasm)

 

[FrDavid96]

Well, there is no evidence of people touching their toes, and then touching other people’s toes in any commentary on the Church, so… we should introduce this!!



(Warning: This post contains a large amount of sarcasm)

Let’s follow the same line of argument. Rome has never specifically forbidden it, so that means it’s permitted. And don’t you dare say that a priest would be wrong for telling people not to do this during the Mass, because the priest cannot introduce his own liturgical laws. While we’re at it, let’s have people do the motions to “I’m a little teapot” during the Lamb of God. Rome has never forbidden that either, so it must be allowed. After all, there’s no evidence to support the theory that the early Christians did not do this either, and there is no required posture here either (beyond standing or kneeling). The arguments from silence are just deafening!

 

[CWBetts]

But holding hands isn’t an abuse. I am beginning to think there is a branch of Catholicism that requires adherents to be robots

 

[FrDavid96]

But holding hands isn’t an abuse. I am beginning to think there is a branch of Catholicism that requires adherents to be robots

Adding anything to the Mass on one’s own authority is the very definition of a liturgical abuse. Read the recent documents by JP2 which show very clearly and very pastorally just why following the liturgical norms of the Church is not being “robots” but is instead being faithful to the faith and practices of the Church. He said it much better than I can ever hope to explain it here.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Let’s follow the same line of argument. Rome has never specifically forbidden it, so that means it’s permitted. And don’t you dare say that a priest would be wrong for telling people not to do this during the Mass, because the priest cannot introduce his own liturgical laws. While we’re at it, let’s have people do the motions to “I’m a little teapot” during the Lamb of God. Rome has never forbidden that either, so it must be allowed. After all, there’s no evidence to support the theory that the early Christians did not do this either, and there is no required posture here either (beyond standing or kneeling). The arguments from silence are just deafening!

Exactly!

 

[CWBetts]

Due to an editorial oversight (mine), the article “The Ten Most Common Liturgical Abuses” in our January 1999 issue stated that the Holy See has prohibited the practice of holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer at Mass. Since we have continued to receive questions on this issue from both sides of the aisle-those who like to hold hands and those who don’t-we revisited the source cited by the article as prohibiting the practice. Bottom line: The Holy See has used language discouraging the practice, but it has not explicitly forbidden it.

This came directly from Catholic Answers. (Tim Ryland wrote the article.)

 

[FrDavid96]

This came directly from Catholic Answers. (Tim Ryland wrote the article.)

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Vatican II said that no one may add, remove, or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority. That prohibition against adding “anything” has since been abrogated? Do I understand that correctly or is there something I’m missing?

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi Fr David,

I think the problem here may be interpretation.

It has been shown that posture of the laity is not to be rigidly regulated, so how could this be adding anything? This handholding posture has been around for years, and never strongly discouraged. Obviously the church does not consider it an irregularity serious enough to make an issue, especially since so many people consider this a preferred prayer posture.

It cannot be mandated or forbidden.

Lux

 

[FrCorey]

Hi Fr David,

I think the problem here may be interpretation.

It has been shown that posture of the laity is not to be rigidly regulated, so how could this be adding anything? This handholding posture has been around for years, and never strongly discouraged. Obviously the church does not consider it an irregularity serious enough to make an issue, especially since so many people consider this a preferred prayer posture.

It cannot be mandated or forbidden.

Lux

so, if I am celebrating mass, and they start holding hands, and break into interpertive dance. this is ok?

 

[gospel_life]

so, if I am celebrating mass, and they start holding hands, and break into interpertive dance. this is ok?

Red herring alert!!!

So interpretive dance is a position of prayer that has been around for 40 years without a peep from the Vatican?

I would think a priest would know the difference and how to deal with the difference.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

so, if I am celebrating mass, and they start holding hands, and break into interpertive dance. this is ok?

hi Fr,

Are you being sarcastic, or do you favor liturgical dance?

(actually, I was wondering about that when I read this ps at morning MassWed–
Praise him with the blast of the trumpet,
praise him with lyre and harp,
Praise him with timbrel and dance,
praise him with strings and pipe.)

John did post this reference—what you suggest is neither a custom, nor reasonable.

CAN. 24 §1. No custom which is contrary to divine law can obtain the force of law.

§2. A custom contrary to or beyond canon law (praeter ius canonicum) cannot obtain the force of law unless it is reasonable; a custom which is expressly reprobated in the law, however, is not reasonable

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Sorry—I misread your post—I read it as you would do the interpretative dance

 

[MrS]

so, if I am celebrating mass, and they start holding hands, and break into interpertive dance. this is ok?

No it is not okay,

not if you are in fact celebrating the Catholic Mass as a legitimatly ordained priest in the Catholic or Orthodox Church, and your ordination is traced back to the Apostles directly - not part of a group claiming to be in communion with the Church and in fact causing a scandal… either now or down the road.

If you are otherwise… it just does not matter, does it?

.

 

[FrCorey]

hi Fr,

Are you being sarcastic, or do you favor liturgical dance?

(actually, I was wondering about that when I read this ps at morning MassWed–
Praise him with the blast of the trumpet,
praise him with lyre and harp,
Praise him with timbrel and dance,
praise him with strings and pipe.)

John did post this reference—what you suggest is neither a custom, nor reasonable.

Lux

sort of wimsical.
p.s. I like that song.
I think it’s Let us go to the altar.
becuase we have a lot of hispanics here we can use
the marion sacramentary and lectionary.

 

[Freshman88]

I would think a priest would know the difference and how to deal with the difference.

And I would think that a Catholic as seemingly knowledgeable as you, would know how to give a priest his due respect!

Some tone.

 

[FrCorey]

And I would think that a Catholic as seemingly knowledgeable as you, would know how to give a priest his due respect!

Some tone.

it’s no problem.
You should see how we get treated by the public when they catch a priest doing something really bad. we get shoved off the sidewalk, spit on, called names I shouldn’t type in here, stuff thrown at us. etc. I was sitting at a bus stop in my cassock once and someone drove by and threw a drink out the window at me. still don’t know which hurt worse, the ice or the glass.

 

[Newbie2]

And I would think that a Catholic as seemingly knowledgeable as you, would know how to give a priest his due respect!

Some tone.

Pot calling the kettle black, methinks.

Anyway, this thread could go on forever, and probably will. Those who will complain and cite chapter and verse, those who don’t care either way, and those who like the practice, as well as those Bishops and Priests that tolerate and may encourage the practice.

I just love being a Catholic.