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happymommy
Guest
Thank you!Happy Mommy, you’ve got quite a few little ones (and some not so little anymore) I see.
A Happy Mommy makes for happy children!
- Status
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kevinwinterborn
Guest
First, I am not an expert, not holier than anyone. I am conservative and that goes double for my faith. From what I was told over the years is that the hand holding and raising hands during the Our Father is from the Protestant side. Also, no, you should not hold up your hands as the priest does. The Mass is called the Mass precisely for that reason. Our prayers and other movements and songs of praise (laity) during mass are done communally. Therefore, any other signs or movements during mass, not directly called for in the GIRM or by a Bishop should be restricted. Some of you may say, ‘well, holding hands or holding up your hands like the priest isn’t so bad.’ Well, what if somone in the congregation decided to anything else they felt was appropriate, such as dancing up the aisle on their way to receive the Eucharist, or any number of other things. Our prayers and songs and motions are supposed go en masse, through the priest through Christ, otherwise why would a priest be necessary if we do our own thing? For the same reasons you are not supposed to say the Rosary or pray the LOH during mass or any other form of independent worship. And no, like some of you have said too, I don’t like this hand holding or arm raising either - but then again I wish the Tridentine would make a triumphant comeback. And again, I’m no one special, just a simple worker for the Lord. I am not holier than thou, this is an open discussion board and these are my 2 or so cents.
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paperwight66
Guest
Sorry, you’ve misunderstood why the Mass is called ‘Mass’. It is nothing to do with the phrase ‘en masse’, but comes from the Latin words that the priest used to say at the end ‘Ite, missa est’. The precise meaning of this has been disputed, but most commentators seem to think that it meant '‘Go, it is the dismissal’.
Unless of course you were making a play on the word ‘mass’ and I have misunderstood any pun, in which case, my apologies!
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Magnavox
Guest
You are not alone here. It really bothers me too.It’s confusing that’s for sure! I, for one, don’t have a problem with people holding hands with their family…not jumping across the pews to grab the hand of anyone they want! I know that many disagree with that, but this standing with your hands up and then raising them higher at the end of the prayer really bothers me.
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kevinwinterborn
Guest
No, I messed that one - I did read that somewhere before and I realized it was wrong then. The word’s origin - as used today - is in dispute. I got confused because this very topic was discussed at length with some of the folks in my group. We pretty much all agreed that the Mass is a communal celebration and the word Mass could be used to describe the celebration as taking place -en masse- ummm so to speak…
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PJM
Guest
Holding hands is a PRACTICE [not a doctrine] si it can be changed or even regulated by Ones local Bishop.
The reason many dislike it is that it is ALWAYS a destraction; were are for awhile focused on each other [especially if with a stranger], and our attention is taken away from God.
The Novous Ordo [New Mass] has adopted many Protestant practices that make “US” MORE LIKE THEM IN WORSHIP. The foucs was in the Latin Mass Totally on God. That is no-longer true for many of the new actions take away from this OH SO ESSENTAIL aspect of Catholic Worship.
One certainly is not sinning in doing so UNLESS the entent is to disrupt and alter our focus. Most see it as mom does; as unifying the community of believers." Not in and of itself a bad thing; but definitely more Protestant than Catholic. A glace and a smile would accomplish the same result without the disruption.
Protest worship seems to be to unite THE Comminity with God. Catholic Worship is to ONLY [in MAss] Worship, THANK, Praise and Glorify God. Its ALL ABOUT GOD; not about us. There are other avenues for Catholic Fellowship that make that there focus. Give to God what is to God; and to Ceasar what is Ceasars.
God Bless,
Pat
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Cristiano
Guest
Holding hands and the Orans position are not the same thing from both an historical and a theological point of view. It really bothers me when people discuss them as being the same thing.
I think that hand holding during Mass is bad theology, in my diocese most of the people do it, and sometime they even grab your hands or put their hand on your shoulder if you do choose not to participate. The interesting thing is that my confessor told me that our previous Bishop forbade the use of hand holding, and people kept doing it anyway.
I think that hand holding during Mass is bad theology, in my diocese most of the people do it, and sometime they even grab your hands or put their hand on your shoulder if you do choose not to participate. The interesting thing is that my confessor told me that our previous Bishop forbade the use of hand holding, and people kept doing it anyway.
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laszlo
Guest
Luke 18:: [10] Two men went up into the temple to pray: the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [11] The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican. [12] I fast twice in a week: I give tithes of all that I possess. [13] And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; but struck his breast, saying: O God, be merciful to me a sinner.
The gestures always have some traditional basis, regardless of the explanation. Moses, as the leader of the people rose his hands, the high priests rose their hand, priests rose their hands, and apparently some new people against the tradition. The traditional sign of the humility is kneeling, striking our breast and similar gestures.
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TheMc
Guest
I’ve never heard it explained so well.
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CatholicFireman
Guest
Bothers me too. I would think humility would be the opposite of raising your hands (like lazlo suggested). Either way, I just close my eyes in prayer these days so it doesn’t irk me anymore.Yes, I understand the “whys” I just don’t feel comfortable doing it; a personal thing.
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coolduude
Guest
This was brought up between my brother and I during Easter Vigil. I tried to explain that it doesn’t belong in the Mass (I didn’t want to get into details then and there). His response was “Would Jesus care if we held hands?” I didn’t know what to say 
Would He care?
Would He care?
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Austringer
Guest
MMMM, I’m not so sure about that…the liturgy does not belong to any one person, even a bishop.
•Sacrosanctum Concilium art. 22.3 (1963)
o Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.
•Canon 846.1 (1983)
o The liturgical books approved by the competent authority are to be faithfully observed in the celebration of the sacraments; therefore no one on personal authority may add, remove or change anything in them.
•Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1125 (1992)
o For this reason no sacramental rite may be modified or manipulated at the will of the minister or the community. Even the supreme authority of the Church may not change the liturgy arbitrarily, but only in obedience of faith and with religious respect for the mystery of the liturgy.
•General Instruction of the Roman Missal, no. 24 (2003)
o Nevertheless, the priest must remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.
•Redemptionis Sacramentum, nos. 31, 59 (2004)
o They ought not to detract from the profound meaning of their own ministry by corrupting the liturgical celebration either through alteration or omission, or through arbitrary additions.
o The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy
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ThePoorInSpirit
Guest
I have to laugh; I just responded to another thread where alot of the posters felt it was okay to follow their own will instead of the will of the bishops on viewing morally offensive movies. And what I said there, I can easily repeat here. Why is it so hard for some Catholics to follow the Churches’ authority on Church matters. If the GIRM doesn’t say to hold hands during the Our Father, why do it then. Personally, I would like to do a tap dance routine after Communion (just kidding) but the GIRM doesn’t call for it so I believe (to keep our Church universal aka Catholic) we should follow to the tee the way the Mass was set up. We are there to worship God as ONE, HOLY, APOSTOLIC CHURCH (my minds drawing a blank - is Catholic suppose to go in between holy and apostlic?) (I don’t want to look this one up but I’m pretty sure that it does). ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, APOSTOLIC CHURCH - hopefully you guys get my point.
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coolduude
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eagle_eye222001
Guest
Jesus would want you to follow His Church.This was brought up between my brother and I during Easter Vigil. I tried to explain that it doesn’t belong in the Mass (I didn’t want to get into details then and there). His response was “Would Jesus care if we held hands?” I didn’t know what to say
Would He care?
Since His Church does not call for us to do that…
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TheMc
Guest
What an awesome point!coolduude:
Jesus would want you to follow His Church.
Since His Church does not call for us to do that…
In the first century, Jesus spoke, well… with his physical mouth.
At this time in history, Jesus speaks through his church. So if the church says “don’t do xyz” and you do, Jesus does care.
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FAB
Guest
Nice example but it misses the mark. the pharisee raised his hands to exalt himself, We do it to exalt and praise God as father. We have bowed in humility at the penitential rite at the beginning mass.
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PJM
Guest
=coolduude;7808907]This was brought up between my brother and I during Easter Vigil. I tried to explain that it doesn’t belong in the Mass (I didn’t want to get into details then and there). His response was “Would Jesus care if we held hands?” I didn’t know what to say
If I recall correctly; Jesus knowing the He AND the Holy Spirit would be there to guide and lead; GAVE COMPLETE Governance of His one Faith to Peter and his successors: [Mt. 16:19 an 18:18]…
So YES dear friends, Jesus WOULD OBJECT.
Christ dosen’t second guess the Pope; shoule we?Humility [and Obedience] are the essentail attributes of the TRUELY Faithful.
Let us pray!
Pat
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Tantum_ergo
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Right.If I recall correctly; Jesus knowing the He AND the Holy Spirit would be there to guide and lead; GAVE COMPLETE Governance of His one Faith to Peter and his successors: [Mt. 16:19 an 18:18]…
So YES dear friends, Jesus WOULD OBJECT.
Humility [and Obedience] are the essentail attributes of the TRUELY Faithful.
Let us pray!
Pat
Now I’m sure that most of us would not really have a problem if a family were holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer. . .after all, especially if you have small children, it’s probably not the ONLY time that you have been holding your child’s hand! Mothers (and fathers too) spend the Mass bouncing babies on the knee, burping them, fending off brother and sister physical kicks, etc., and sometimes will just then hold the child’s hand for a while to ‘calm’ them. So that is one thing.
I think that for most people who object, they do so because:
A. It’s not in the Rubrics.
B. It is not something that grew out of the Mass but something that was ‘put in’. There are many different explanations as to how it ‘got’ there (in some parishes a priest started it, in others it started with the people, some got it from Charismatic practices, etc.) Since it wasn’t mandated, since it doesn’t really have a ‘rhyme or reason’, etc., people are opposed to it.
C. It can be uncomfortable. There are those of us with physical issues (like arthritis) who find that somebody, even a little child, suddenly grabbing and swinging our hands causes ACUTE PHYSICAL PAIN which doesn’t ‘stop’ at the Mass but can trigger days, weeks, or months of pain that would NOT HAVE HAPPENED otherwise. And there are those of us with emotional issues (PTSD, abuse survivors) who are made emotionally uncomfortable, and can suffer terror, ‘flashbacks’ etc. because of this uninitiated and unsought physical contact.
Now for those who DON’T OBJECT it is usually because:
A. It FEELS so warm and fuzzy.
B. They’re used to it and it FEELS so warm and fuzzy.
C. Like most people, they don’t want to feel they’re doing anything wrong (especially when it feels so warm and fuzzy) so even if they would normally ‘back off’, they get defensive and ‘fight back.’
D. Since people who are usually warm and demonstrative think that is NORMAL, anything LESS is seen as not normal. Ergo, If you think my warm and fuzzy actions are not appropriate, it is because you are cold, uncaring, hypercritical, a Pharisee, and Jesus would weep if He saw you except He’s going to be busy broiling you in hell for your judgmentalism and not wanting to touch sweet little children, you big meanie.
Just some thoughts here.
:nope::nope::hypno:- Status