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JimR-OCDS
Guest
And while you do this, examine your heart and ask what motivation you have for doing it? You may have to exempt yourself from receiving communion until you receive confession
Jim
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Jim
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decn2b
Guest
Jim,
It is a vertical prayer not a horizontal prayer. If hand holding were never introduced there would not be controversy and division amoung us at least on this particular issue. Hand holding alone has caused controversy.that alone indicates that it is not a good thing. If the church didin’t prescribe it and it makes people feel uncomfortable then it is WRONG. The practice did not come from the people who designed and formulated the way we worship. I refrain from hand holding and have been given some very very unhealthy looks. Those looks would not have occurred if the practice never existed.
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AquinaSavio
Guest
I’ve noticed that holding hands during the Our Father sends the wrong message to people. They think that the Our Father is the time when all of us are united during the Mass. On the contrary, Holy Communion (hence the name) is when all Catholics are united with Christ because we have just received Him into ourselves physically.
The youth at our parish did a presentation on the four marks of the Church. When they presented the “Catholic or universal” mark, they had a poster of people holding hands and explained that “to be united was like when we hold hands during the Our Father.” These are 17 year old kids, and they don’t know that Holy Communion is the time when we unite. This lack of Catholic education is not being helped by the holding of hands during the Our Father.
Besides this, the warm’n’fuzzy feeling that holding hands is intended to give at Mass is not necessary. We are there to adore God, not to make ourselves feel good.
:twocents:
The youth at our parish did a presentation on the four marks of the Church. When they presented the “Catholic or universal” mark, they had a poster of people holding hands and explained that “to be united was like when we hold hands during the Our Father.” These are 17 year old kids, and they don’t know that Holy Communion is the time when we unite. This lack of Catholic education is not being helped by the holding of hands during the Our Father.
Besides this, the warm’n’fuzzy feeling that holding hands is intended to give at Mass is not necessary. We are there to adore God, not to make ourselves feel good.
:twocents:
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ncjohn
Guest
Hi Trevor,
There are a couple things here I’d like to address. First is the fact that the entire Mass is communal worship, not just communion or the Our Father. Vatican II was quite clear on this. A large part of the changeover to the vernacular was to bring everyone into understanding and active participation rather than having individuals concentrating on their own personal devotions and own personal piety. “Holy Communion” is not when we unite as we are constantly united as the Body of Christ. Communion at that time, while surely a communal activity, is primarily with God as we strive to internalize His presence.
Holding hands is one way we can express this in the communal prayer to Our Father. Is it necessary? No, of course not. But none of the signs and symbols of the Mass are “neccesary”. They are incorporated into the Mass to bring to our senses a fuller participation in what we are doing. Different signs and symbols speak differently to different people, which is why there are so many of them of different types–smells, bells, water, incense, the sign of peace, etc–just as there are many different types of people who are drawn to different senses.
Your other statement about the intention being to produce a “warm and fuzzy feeling” and make people feel good, aside from being degrading, is just totally untrue. It is about nothing more than expressing the communal nature of that particular prayer, which is the only one offered by the people rather than the priest. It has nothing to do with being “warm and fuzzy”.
The statement made by a previous poster that the prayer is a vertical prayer and not a horizontal prayer is also untrue. The Mass itself is a vertical prayer of a horizontal community. And the Our Father is probably the most horizontal part of that prayer that is the Mass, again since it is offered by the people as a whole.
One is certainly entitled to not participate, or to find that this particular sign doesn’t speak to them. In charity though, one should not be making judgments about those to whom the sign does speak, just as those should not be making judgments about the ones to whom it does not speak.
Just as there are those who are very “demonstrative” when they speak to each other, and those who aren’t, the Church recognizes that there are those who are demonstrative when they speak to God and those who aren’t. It’s not a matter of right or wrong, just a matter of how we’re “made”.
Peace,
J
john_ennis
Guest
As we pray to the Father, the entire Body of Christ–angels, saints, we–are in unity. We are united by Him. Holding hands doesn’t add to this sublime unity, but it can perpetuate the idea that by being united we come closer to God, rather than that our closeness to God unites us.
Unity is the result of our faith, not the prerequisite. That’s one reason many of us shy away from holding hands–it can not only distract us, but distort our perspective a bit.
As far as “live and let live,” I agree–but the reason this practice spread through churches like wildfire is because it’s downright awkward to ignore the other’s outstretched hand. That has been an imposition by those who wish to do this, whether they meant to impose or not.
Lastly, of course this has been partly emotion-driven. I’ve felt it myself–been attracted by it, then had second thoughts–as I raised my hands higher with those around me when we said, “For the kingdom, the power…” I was enthused by the experience, more than by my own reflection on the Father’s love.
Peace.
John
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
The Lord’s Prayer is the context of the Mass is communal and directed too God.
Hand holding is only controversial for those who are bent on fighting against it.
Those who have no problem with holding the hand of their fellow parishioners, are not the one’s making the noise about it and creating the controversy.
I prefer to worship as a community of friends, rather than a community of strangers. Holding hands during the Lord’s prayer, as well as giving the sign of peace, helps bridge the gap.
Jim
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mikew262
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crenfro
Guest
We do it at the parish I go to, but last time I wore gloves because I was starting to have flu symptoms the day before.
My feelings get hurt when people don’t extend their hands to me–once this woman with her little boy pulled him away from me like I was some sort of monster way before we were ever supposed to hold hands-it made me feel like a pariah and I didn’t understand why someone would treat me like that at church.
Lately I haven’t been extending my hand or holding hands during the “Our Father” as much to people. Tired of all the hurt I’ve been through even with this simple act.
My feelings get hurt when people don’t extend their hands to me–once this woman with her little boy pulled him away from me like I was some sort of monster way before we were ever supposed to hold hands-it made me feel like a pariah and I didn’t understand why someone would treat me like that at church.
Lately I haven’t been extending my hand or holding hands during the “Our Father” as much to people. Tired of all the hurt I’ve been through even with this simple act.
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otjm
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And that is certainly a charitible response…
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WenckebachCath
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And also very mature.
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blessedtoo
Guest
From the CCC:
There are already ways to express our “unity” inherent in the Mass. That is the purpose of the “sign of peace”. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to indicate enough “unity” so now we have to stand through the distribution of Communion until all have received to “show our unity”. And of course, we have to introduce ourselves to one another before Mass begins to show our “unity”. The names of the people who bring up the gifts must be announced now to show how we are all “united”. Where do you think all these innovations began? And where do you think it might end? In addition, you are mistaken when you say “none of the signs and gestures are necessary”. There is both scriptural and traditional support for every single gesture that exists in the Mass and the types (smells, bells, etc) are not there to appeal to the senses of the people. Again, they are based in Scripture and tradition.
Exactly. The people have taken it upon themselves to introduce an unecessary and divisive innovation which now, unfortunately, has swept through the Church and has the approval of many, many priests. Bravo!
The Church has not recognized any such thing. There are “Churches” and priests who have allowed this to happen, and some who have unfortunately encouraged it. But the Church herself, has never recognized that each individual, based on how they are “made”, can worship in their own way.
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ncjohn
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You might want to do a little further study on liturgical development, as well as how those signs and symbols came to be “traditional”. Being traditional does not make something “necessary”. Necessary for what?? There are many other rites united with Rome who do not use the same signs and symbols, or the same postures. Are they then deficient in some way? Is a Mass that doesn’t include them deficient if they are “necessary”?
And as to them not being there as sensual aids…
Not sure what the point of that is. Of course we’re united then. But we are not united only then. We are always integrally united in the Body of Christ.
The Church has answered both affirmatively–through the USCCB’s statement that no position for the hands is prescribed at the Our Father in direct response to the question–and by omission in not having at any time over its 35-40 year existence made any claim that it is unacceptable, while addressing many things that are in fact abuses.
I respect your right to your opinions and preferences, as long as we understand that that’s all they are and do not reflect any teaching or dictates from the Church.
And I will continue to urge all toward charity in not in any way imposing their personal preferences upon the person next to them or judging their neighbor on those preferences.
Peace,
A
AquinaSavio
Guest
Hey John! Nice to talk to you!
I understand your point that the Mass is communal worship. However, one cannot dispute that the actual sacrifice of the Holy Eucharist is the most important part of the Mass. It is the unbloody renewal of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Our reception of this sacrament is the greatest aid to our spiritual life. Sure, all Catholics are united in the Mystical Body of Christ. However, we are never more intimate with Him and each other (in this life) than when we have physically received Him into our bodies. We are then united not only because we each believe the same things and have been made children of God by baptism, but because we truly, physically have Christ within ourselves. “Because the bread is one, we though many, are one body, all of us who partake of the one bread.” (I Corinthians 10:17)
The sacrament of the Holy Eucharist and Holy Communion unite us with God. The Our Father, being the perfect prayer, is very important too. However, as you said, we are already united in prayer throughout the whole Mass. There is no need to hold hands to show our unity.
Certainly there are unnecessary signs throughout the Mass. However, each of these signs must be included in the GIRM and Roman Missal. The Mass is not like a stew where everyone can just throw in their own ingredients. It is necessary that we hold fast to what the Church has expressly given us, not to what the local parish priest thinks is nice.
I hold fast to my belief that elements have been introduced to make people feel better about worshipping God. The “warm’n’fuzzy” statement may not be the nicest way to put it, but I think it gets the point across. If the Church thought that this was a necessary part of the Mass, it certainly would have been included in the Roman Missal. It was not. Instead, other Christian denominations are the true source of it, just as they are the source of the prayer at the end (“for the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever”). This is not Catholic Tradition. Just because it’s the 21st century doesn’t mean that we have to start modernizing and catering to everyone.
God Bless you!
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dessert
Guest
This has been an interesting thread as if someone extends their hand to me I accept but prefer to only if I know them. But you may not believe me but at the church I went to we had a nun that would give the word and communion and homily it was her day of the week just her and one other of her choice to assist,so I wondered what would happen if I knelt during the Our Father if everyone would follow and guess what they did. I knelt follded my hands and they all did except the nun but she went along maybe because I being a woman? Everyone liked it and no one was telling the priest( not even the deacon ) and we did it his way when he was there except I also notice he would say now let us join together in the perfect prayer, butttttt the deacon when he would have the word and communion he would say let us stand and join together in the perfect prayer? (quess he was in contorl) So our nun totally was understanding but with a grimace . In each cases we were in unity and I would not attempt it again butttttt if the priest or whoever does not say let us STAND and say the perfect prayer. (And does he say to HOLD hands) This took place during daily mass. This is the confusing part of the mass they do want us to do similar gestures but not all gestures the same. When you are kneeling it is hard to hold hands so you consequently fold them. So your priest may be waiting for you to take the innitiative as the do give us the ritual commands during the mass as we must obey. Just a thought! God Bless and try out your priest they are very flexible.they say to get rid of something anoying like a bad gesture you need to introduce a better one as habits need a substitute not a condemnation.
dessert
wondered what would happen if I knelt during the Our Father if everyone would follow and guess what they did. I knelt follded my hands and they all did except the nun but she went along maybe because I being a woman? Everyone liked it and no one was telling the priest( not even the deacon ) and we did it his way when he was there except I also notice he would say now let us join together in the perfect prayer, butttttt the deacon when he would have the word and communion he would say let us stand and join together in the perfect prayer? (quess he was in contorl) So our nun totally was understanding but with a grimace . In each cases we were in unity and I would not attempt it again butttttt if the priest or whoever does not say let us STAND and say the perfect prayer. (And does he say to HOLD hands) This took place during daily mass. This is the confusing part of the mass they do want us to do similar gestures but not all gestures the same. When you are kneeling it is hard to hold hands so you consequently fold them. So your priest may be waiting for you to take the innitiative as the do give us the ritual commands during the mass as we must obey. Just a thought! God Bless and try out your priest they are very flexible.they say to get rid of something anoying like a bad gesture you need to introduce a better one as habits need a substitute not a condemnation.dessert
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ncjohn
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I totally agree that the Eucharist is the most important part of the Mass. But we are united at all times in the Body of Christ; the Eucharist does not make it so.
And as I said previously, I agree with you that holding hands is not needed. No individual symbol is “needed”, but that doesn’t make them invalid or insignificant.
This is an argument that is often made. The problem with it is that the GIRM gives NO direction at all to hand posture for the laity. If you want to take the approach that we can only do with our hands what the GIRM directs, then we will have to cut them off as nothing is directed. The Holy See gave to the conferences of bishops the authority to regulate these things, subject to them being overridden by the CDW. The USCCB has said, in response to the specific question about whether it was ok, that there is no prescribed position for the hands. As such, at least in the US, there is nothing illicit about it, whatever good arguments people might have for thinking it should not be allowed, many of which I feel great sympathy with.
That may in fact be true, but I don’t think you can at all generalize that it is the reason for this practice, and I would contend that you cannot judge it to be true at all among those of us who knowingly participate for specific other reasons. To make such a statement is no more fair than for others to make a statement that those kneeling to receive communion are just doing so to “look” pious. We just are not able to judge people’s hearts and motivations in matters of devotion.
And again this argument doesn’t work since the inverse of “if the Church felt it was important to fold our hands in front of us they would have said so in the GIRM” also doesn’t hold true. Church documents have stated a desire to allow some degree of flexibility.
Another popular claim also thrown out for which nobody has offered any evidence and which Protestant posters have specifically denied to be the case.
All traditions started somewhere Trevor. Many of what you would identify as your preferences only came into being in the Tridentine era, and were at best random for the first 1500 years of the Church.
There is also a reasonable possibility that this actually is a “traditition” under definitions of canon law. I’d have to go dig it back out, but “traditions”, unlike “custom” or “law” can come into existence through the faithful and become tradition by virtue of existing over some specified time period, which I believe is 30 years, without being reprobated.
I won’t belabor the topic any further since this has all been discussed in great detail in the many other threads on the topic. But I’ll just side with Archbishop Chaput’s statement on the topic, which is a clear and charitable articulation of at least the current status.
Peace,
E
Evangel
Guest
The laity are given precisely two instructions before the “Our Father”:
1 - Stand
2 - Pray
As participants, we should stand and pray.
That begs the question, what posture does one normally adopt for praying while standing? I think the answer for most people is that we clasp our hands, bow our heads, and perhaps even close our eyes so that we may concentrate on what we are saying. That is how we would say a “Hail Mary” or a “Glory Be” while standing … or any of the other prayers said at Mass while standing. Adopting a posture that is NOT normally used during standing prayer is a novelty.
I don’t give a lot of credence to arguments that because the GIRM doesn’t specify the exact posture that there is wide latitude here or even a charitable expectation that we should hold hands if proffered. More likely, the Vatican’s liturgy experts never imagined that Americans wouldn’t know how to stand and pray.
1 - Stand
2 - Pray
As participants, we should stand and pray.
That begs the question, what posture does one normally adopt for praying while standing? I think the answer for most people is that we clasp our hands, bow our heads, and perhaps even close our eyes so that we may concentrate on what we are saying. That is how we would say a “Hail Mary” or a “Glory Be” while standing … or any of the other prayers said at Mass while standing. Adopting a posture that is NOT normally used during standing prayer is a novelty.
I don’t give a lot of credence to arguments that because the GIRM doesn’t specify the exact posture that there is wide latitude here or even a charitable expectation that we should hold hands if proffered. More likely, the Vatican’s liturgy experts never imagined that Americans wouldn’t know how to stand and pray.
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dessert
Guest
I am a cradel Catholic Revert and yes the protestants said the power etc at the end and as he stated all the rest but what is sad a lot of them don’t say the Our Father or Lord’s prayer as they say anymore.I was in a lot of the denominations and we as Catholics have a lot of the adopted ways.
I was thumbing through the hymnal just wundering and yes what I was looking for was there the song We are one in the Spirit We are one in the Lord. I first heard that 30 years or more ago in a very strong pentacostal anti everything church that even the denomination said they had to be on their own.
I was surprised.
At the parish I now attend the priest picks the music for the sunday and it is printed on a seperate sheet each sunday and we don’t open the hymnal. Praise the Lord ooops did I say that it slipped out but yes we are there to praise and thank the Lord.
In the other non- Catholic churches it was considered a good past time to watch what the others were doing falling over and the like in the front but it is wonderful to carry on great conversations with all the christians on this forum as I am learning more than what is in my own little world. dessert
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dessert
Guest
Is this the posture of the priest or just one you think up.The laity are given precisely two instructions before the “Our Father”:
1 - Stand
2 - Pray
As participants, we should stand and pray.
That begs the question, what posture does one normally adopt for praying while standing? I think the answer for most people is that we clasp our hands, bow our heads, and perhaps even close our eyes so that we may concentrate on what we are saying. That is how we would say a “Hail Mary” or a “Glory Be” while standing … or any of the other prayers said at Mass while standing. Adopting a posture that is NOT normally used during standing prayer is a novelty.
I don’t give a lot of credence to arguments that because the GIRM doesn’t specify the exact posture that there is wide latitude here or even a charitable expectation that we should hold hands if proffered. More likely, the Vatican’s liturgy experts never imagined that Americans wouldn’t know how to stand and pray.
What if the priest is wide eyed and not telling you to bow your head and what if you get dizzy when you close your eyes. I have never heard a Hail Mary
at Mass said ? see I learn something new. You are giving me ideas but this wil not fly .We do have the rosary in the adoration room and they also say the chaplet. Dessert
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dessert
Guest
The Vatican taught us to originnally kneel and pray with floled hands pointing to the heaven and if my priest starts to do this then that is what I will adopt because he the shepherd during the Mass. IMHO Dessert
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ncjohn
Guest
That might be a nice thing, but I tend to think that the actual answer is that most people would be standing with their hands in their pockets or on the back of the pew in front of them, as sad as that may be.
Number one, we’re not talking about “wide lattitude”; we are talking about one specific posture that has been around for as long as the Our Father has been recited by the laity. While they don’t track for that time frame in all places, the fact that they came into being almost simultaneously, and have never in all that time been repudiated by the Church, should lend great credibility.I don’t give a lot of credence to arguments that because the GIRM doesn’t specify the exact posture that there is wide latitude here or even a charitable expectation that we should hold hands if proffered. More likely, the Vatican’s liturgy experts never imagined that Americans wouldn’t know how to stand and pray.
I agree that there should be no expectation whatsoever that anyone will take a hand just because it’s offered. And further that grabbing for someone’s hand is not acceptable if it hasn’t been offered.
Finally, holding hands is not at all confined to the US, as I have expereienced it in every part of the world to which I have travelled.
As to the “liturgy experts” not expecting it, they had a very clear opportunity to stop it in 1975 when the question was asked about whether it was ok to substitute holding hands during the Our Father for the Sign of Peace. They specificially did NOT repudiate holding hands during the Our Father, but specifically DID repudiate substituting it for the sign of peace. Had it been a concern of the “liturgy experts” that would have been the easy chance to put a stop to it. Instead they conspicuously chose not to do so.
But thank you for your charitable implication that because we hold hands we’re too stupid to know how to pray. It always helps me when I learn why I do the things I do.
Peace,
- Status