Holding Hands during Our Father?

[Uncle_David]

We hold hands in our church (most do anyway).

When my girls were about 5, one was sitting next to an older lady at Mass. Before the “Lords Prayer” Hailey held up her hand. The lady looked uncomfortable at first but then smiled down and took her hand. After Mass she whispered to Hailey “Thank You for praying with me”.

 

[Evangel]

Is this the posture of the priest or just one you think up.

I have never heard a Hail Mary at Mass said ? see I learn something new.

Neither have I, but of course, I didn’t say that I had. Of course, there were all those little old ladies with their rosaries.

 

[Evangel]

That might be a nice thing, but I tend to think that the actual answer is that most people would be standing with their hands in their pockets or on the back of the pew in front of them, as sad as that may be.

Too true.

Number one, we’re not talking about “wide lattitude”; we are talking about one specific posture that has been around for as long as the Our Father has been recited by the laity.

We’re talking about one posture that is not normally used during “standing prayer”.

Finally, holding hands is not at all confined to the US, as I have expereienced it in every part of the world to which I have travelled.

Nor are a host of other problems, but “common” does not equal “correct”.

As to the “liturgy experts” not expecting it, they had a very clear opportunity to stop it in 1975 when the question was asked about whether it was ok to substitute holding hands during the Our Father for the Sign of Peace. They specificially did NOT repudiate holding hands during the Our Father, but specifically DID repudiate substituting it for the sign of peace. Had it been a concern of the “liturgy experts” that would have been the easy chance to put a stop to it. Instead they conspicuously chose not to do so.

Official answers are narrowly restricted to the precise issues raised. Non-repudiation of an issue outside the scope of the question does not equal sanction of the issue.

 

[otjm]

Official answers are narrowly restricted to the precise issues raised. Non-repudiation of an issue outside the scope of the question does not equal sanction of the issue.

Given that holding hands has been around for over 40 years, and that Rome has been beseiged by complaints from individualss who say that their bishop won’t prohibit it, it is difficult to presume that an issue that almost everyone in the authority chain(bishops, to US conference, to Rome) has heard about repeatedly during theos 40 years has not been on the table to be addressed. The GIRM has been re-written twice in that period of time and the silence has been deafening.

The GIRM has been the official answer. The answer is that Rome does not make absolutes on posture; they do not prescribe or proscribe the position of hands during any part of the Mass.

The questrion has been asked repeatedly. The answer has been silence.

 

[ncjohn]

We’re talking about one posture that is not normally used during “standing prayer”.

There is no “standard” posture for “standing prayer”.

Nor are a host of other problems, but “common” does not equal “correct”.

And again, there is no standard or “correct” posture expressed anywhere, and personal dislike does not equal “incorrect”.

Official answers are narrowly restricted to the precise issues raised. Non-repudiation of an issue outside the scope of the question does not equal sanction of the issue.

Sorry, but the non-repudiation of a very germane question, along with 35-40 years of deafening silence on the topic, when an entire document–Redemptionis Sacramentum–was specifically produced to deal with things that were problems, along with a specific statement from the controlling body, the USCCB, does equal sanction or at the very least that they do not consider it an issue. The Church would not hesitate a second to say something if they found it “incorrect” as RS clearly showed.

And it’s pretty ironic to take the “narrow scope” position since it is exactly opposite to that taken by those who try to justify kneeling for communion in opposition to the expressed US norm by using the letter that, as an issue outside the question asked, stated that people doing so couldn’t be considered disobedient. I fully agree with the position that people can’t and shouldn’t be denied communion for kneeling, but I find the contradiction in the approaches to answering the two questions very interesting.

Not liking it is fine. I opposed it myself for most of my life and have a pretty good grasp of the objections. But it is important to take care in not making our opinions try to reflect a position the Church hasn’t taken. To do so is to put one’s self in exactly the position that is so often thrown out here, of making the liturgy into one’s own private property. We are not allowed to impose restrictions where the Church has allowed for flexibility.

Peace,

 

[WenckebachCath]

We hold hands in our church (most do anyway).

When my girls were about 5, one was sitting next to an older lady at Mass. Before the “Lords Prayer” Hailey held up her hand. The lady looked uncomfortable at first but then smiled down and took her hand. After Mass she whispered to Hailey “Thank You for praying with me”.

Out of the mouths of babes. How sweet.

 

[Evangel]

There is no “standard” posture for “standing prayer”.

Sure there is:
1 - stand
2 - pray

If, while engaged in standing prayer, folks normally hold hands with complete strangers, the hand-holders (and hand-standers ) would have a case. But since folks don’t normally engage in standing prayer in this fashion, holding hands (like “standing” on one’s hands) is a non-standard posture.

 

[cheddarsox]

For those who think that hand holding is catering to Protestantism…I’ve been regulare atendee of four different Protestant denominations, in about seven or eight churches, and none of them held hands during the Lord’s Prayer, I’ve only ever experienced this in the Catholic Church.

Not sure if that will make anyone feel better about the practice or not, but I’ve often read that it is a “Protestant Inovation”, and that has not been my experience.

 

[otjm]

If the Church thought that this was a necessary part of the Mass, it certainly would have been included in the Roman Missal. It was not.

Well said; that is why they also don’t make any statements about putting your palms together, fingers interlaced, or palms together, fingers pointing up or out. It is a tradition - one that makes some people feel “holy” (does that compare with "warm and fuzzy?). Obviously Rome does not think it is necessary, as they have not dictated wht the position of the hands should be. You have made the point very well.

=AquinaSavio;1917003]Instead, other Christian denominations are the true source of it, just as they are the source of the prayer at the end (“for the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever”). This is not Catholic Tradition. Just because it’s the 21st century doesn’t mean that we have to start modernizing and catering to everyone.

God Bless you! Ah, but Aquino, I beg to differ with you.

Unless you can sourcee which of these other denominations is the source, I would suggest that you are simply taking an emotional pot-shot. The nearest anyone has been able to come to sourcing it is from the Catholic Charismatic movement (the same one that John Paul 2 approved of). Granted that they may have learned it from the Protestant Charismatic Movement, that does not put it with another denomination.

But let’s take it further: “for the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever” Is a Catholic prayer. It comes from a Catholic source, the Didache, written in the second century by no other than Catholics. The Our Father comes from the New Testament; the Didache added the “For the kingdom…” part after 100 AD. later the Protestants added it to the Our Father and it became a point of mild contention between “us” and “them”.

The funny thing is that most Protestants don’t even know the source of it. But be assured that it is most definitely not “us” copying “them”; we had it first, about 1900years ago.

 

[Evangel]

Given that holding hands has been around for over 40 years, and that Rome has been beseiged by complaints from individualss who say that their bishop won’t prohibit it, it is difficult to presume that an issue that almost everyone in the authority chain(bishops, to US conference, to Rome) has heard about repeatedly during theos 40 years has not been on the table to be addressed. The GIRM has been re-written twice in that period of time and the silence has been deafening.

Silence does not equal affirmation, sorry.

 

[otjm]

Sure there is:
1 - stand
2 - pray

If, while engaged in standing prayer, folks normally hold hands with complete strangers, the hand-holders (and hand-standers ) would have a case. But since folks don’t normally engage in standing prayer in this fashion, holding hands (like “standing” on one’s hands) is a non-standard posture.

But isn’t that the point of this whole thread - that “everyone” is doing it?

As to whether it is standard or non-standard, it is not regulated any more than is palms together, fingers interlaced, palms together, thumbs interlaced and fingers pointing up or out, or palms together, all digits pointing up or out.

The bottom line is that in 40+ years of people holding hands during the Our Father, those who don’t like it have flooded their bishops and Rome with complaints, and Rome has seen fit not to regulate the issue.

Frankly, I don’t care whether people hold hands, leave them down at their sides, put their palms together or hold them in the Orans position. I care that they pray the Our Father prayerfully and meaningfully. I don’t have a dog in this fight; any of the above postures is ok by me.

I do think it is time for everyone to put on their big girl or big boy panties and deal with it. With abortion, euthanasia, and who knows how many sexual perversions, not to mention serious economic sins, the dreadful attendance rate at Mass, the secualrization of society, there are some really serious issues we could be dealing with. The amount of time spent on an issue as trivial as this by the self anointed liturgical police is truly depressing.

Folks: Rome doesn’t really care about this. They do not micro manage personal posture to the degree some of you wish; they have other fish to fry. Perhaps we could all attend to the serious issue of life likewise?

 

[decn2b]

The Lord’s Prayer is the context of the Mass is communal and directed too God.

Jim

Could you please direct me towards the Church Document that indicates this is true.

 

[otjm]

Could you please direct me towards the Church Document that indicates this is true.

That doesn’t take a Church document (and by the way, there is no Church document covering minor issues; they are promulgated over major issues). However, a simple common sense reading should elucidate.

The congregation recites it together out loud. That makes it a community action - another way of saying a communal action.

The community directs it to God - the first words are “Our Father” - Father being God, the first person of the Trinity, and “Our” indicating that He is spoken to and of as the community’s God, not the God of an individual.

 

[otjm]

Silence does not equal affirmation, sorry.

I don’t think anyone herein has said that Rome has affirmed holding hands. They have chosen to not regulate the posture when it has been repeately brought to their attention and they have, after being repeatedly notified about it, chosen to ignore it.

Silence does not mean approval; but neither have they approved of holding you hands together in the “traditional” prayer posture. They simply have not regulated it.

In short, some people are anyhere from mildly disinterested in to highly offended by holding hands. these same people would have us put our palms together becasue that is what they perceive as the correct position. Rome has neither approved nor disapproved of either position. The silence is not, as some would indicate, a prohibition of holding hands.

 

[Evangel]

But isn’t that the point of this whole thread - that “everyone” is doing it?

Not at all. The confusion is that a common practice for one prayer is allowed even though the standard for “stand and pray” is something altogether different.

They have chosen to not regulate the posture when it has been repeately brought to their attention and they have, after being repeatedly notified about it, chosen to ignore it.

Silence does not equal affirmation.

The standard posture for “standing prayer” is just that: stand, pray, period. Adopting a posture that is NOT normally used during standing prayer is a novelty.

 

[otjm]

Not at all. The confusion is that a common practice for one prayer is allowed even though the standard for “stand and pray” is something altogether different.

Silence does not equal affirmation.

The standard posture for “standing prayer” is just that: stand, pray, period.

No, you are confusing several issues.

The fact that Rome makes a statement about posture - standing - does not mean that Rome has made an absolute statement - that standing is the only allowed posture and that one may not do anything with one’s hands - hold them together or hold hands with someone next to you.

Look for the answer from Rome to the dubium submitted by Cardinal George re: posture after returning to the bench after receiving Communion. Rome’s response was that they did not regulate so tightly (that one had to remain standing) and that people were free to sit or kneel after receiving.

There are two philosophies of law noted as the Germanic and the Mediterranian (or Italian). The Germanic is “whatever is not permitted is prohibited” and the Mediterranian is “whatever is not prohibited is allowed”. The Church is seated in Rome… and does not follow generally the Germanic mode.

Your response is along the lines of the Germanic philosophy.

 

[dessert]

Neither have I, but of course, I didn’t say that I had. Of course, there were all those little old ladies with their rosaries.

The priest I had stood and prayed of course and always held the hand of the altar severs but the church I go to now he doesn’t hold the hands and they don’t so I was wondering if this is different from church to church so I quess the answer is yes and this is only my second parish so i will have to live and learn.
They are sweet and they are the ones I can sometimes feel the wisdom pass from their hand to mine! Dessert

 

[Evangel]

You’re missing the point. We are given just two directives:
1 - stand
2 - pray

Everything else that is not normally done while engaged in “standing prayer” is novel.

 

[Uncle_David]

You’re missing the point. We are given just two directives:
1 - stand
2 - pray

Everything else that is not normally done while engaged in “standing prayer” is novel.

I used to hold my kids when they were smaller.

 

[teachccd]

Dear Jesus,

Should we hold hands when we pray your prayer at Mass?

Signed, teachccd

Dear Teachccd,

I wish that the whole world would hold hands and pray my prayer.

Love, Jesus

P.S. That person’s hand that you held last Sunday at Mass was deciding to leave my Church. He saw your gesture as a reason to stay. Love knows no limits. Trust Me, I know.