Holding hands during the Our Father

[FAB]

In the Philippines, the universal practice seems to be to hold hands during the Our Father but only the hands of your family and friends. Strangers next to you are studiously ignored. During the Peace people sort of nod at a few people but no attempt is made to acknowledge the existence of all the people immediately around you, let alone shake their hands.

It is correct to note that the Church does not vote on such matters, but eventually the majority does decide. When practices and beliefs are held by a significant portion of the Church over a significant period they become acceptable and may even become doctrine or dogma.

As for hand-holding, thirty to forty years, about a generation, is not a significant amount of time (versus 2,000 year), nor is the practice widely accepted, in my estimation. In parts of the US and elsewhere it is widely practiced but it is not yet universal and there seems to be quite a bit of “back-sldiing”, i.e. places where hand-holding was once practiced no longer do so. I will be long dead before hand-holding has reached a length and breadth significant enough for the practice to be considered universal, if ever. Personally, I don’t think that the practice will have the requisite staying power.

The church may not be a democracy, but it is also not a dictatorship.
The practices of the church are developed threefold, The magisteruim, theologians and the layity.
The best example of the Layity guiding the church is with the devotion to Mary. It started and was promoted by the Layity, recognized as a good practice by the theologians and adopted by the magisterium.
If this were not the case, there would not be so many traditionalist on this site trying to bring back the EF of the mass. They would accept the bishops teachings and fade away.
The comments against the practice from theolgians is that it takes the focus away from the kiss of peace which is were unification and reconcilation is to occur. Most comments that I read have little issue with families and small groups holding hands but rightfully object to the priest instructing or requiring the entire congregation to do so.
As far as staying power, that’s yet to be seen. It has spead over the last 40 years and doesn’t seem to be fading as of yet.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Layman]

I work with young men, some do have a misguided idea of what it means to be masculine and holding another guys hand in prayer is one of them.
I acctually find the opposite is true with many young people, some males not withstanding.

As far as the bishops, the atttitude that thay are in error is also misguided. We are called in obediance to them and their teaching. A problem for many Catholics including traditionalist.

Peace,
FAB

Which Bishop teaches that hand-holding must be done?

Are you a man, Fab? Hand-holding is something women, children and homosexuals do. It is intimate. Men don’t like doing it. Especially with other men and strangers to boot.

One more distracting element in a rite accruing them by the decade. And at an important prayer as well.

Heh. I heard about a parish in Ireland that had to stop ‘the sign of peace’ because there a feud going on between various families. The locals just wouldn’t have it.

 

[Brendan]

The church may not be a democracy, but it is also not a dictatorship.
The practices of the church are developed threefold, The magisteruim, theologians and the layity.
The best example of the Layity guiding the church is with the devotion to Mary. It started and was promoted by the Layity,

Really, are you actually trying to say that St. John ( a bishop) did NOT have a devotion to Mary, the very person Christ put in his charge?

Or was there some lay person who showed St. John how to be devoted to Mary first?

Or which layman instructed St. Luke (again, a bishop) to create the first Icon of Mary?

 

[roadsend]

…
Are you a man, Fab? Hand-holding is something women, children and homosexuals do. It is intimate. Men don’t like doing it. Especially with other men and strangers to boot.

…

Yup.
Hand holding is an intimate gesture, at least among men in our culture.
Besides being an unapproved practice, it is totally out of place in church.

 

[Brendan]

I work with young men, some do have a misguided idea of what it means to be masculine and holding another guys hand in prayer is one of them.
I acctually find the opposite is true with many young people, some males not withstanding.

As far as the bishops, the atttitude that thay are in error is also misguided. We are called in obediance to them and their teaching. A problem for many Catholics including traditionalist.

Peace,
FAB

Great, and I also presume that you are teaching these young men that we are to strike our chests during the Penitential Rite Form A, do a profound bow during the Creed, and do a bow of the head and each mention of the name of Christ, the Trinity, Mary or the saint of the day during Mass.

All of those are requirements for Mass laid forth by the bishops.

And then there is the requriement that the faithful be taught to say or sing the Mass resonses in Latin, per Vatican II (SC 54).

If you are not teaching all of these to those young men, why don’t you start on these first, as they are the requirement that the bishops and the Church have already stated.

And when they have mastered those, then work on optional things, such as hand holding

 

[CatholicFireman]

Great, and I also presume that you are teaching these young men that we are to strike our chests during the Penitential Rite Form A, do a profound bow during the Creed, and do a bow of the head and each mention of the name of Christ, the Trinity, Mary or the saint of the day during Mass.

Also, a showing of reverence before receiving Our Lord.

 

[livnlern]

"the second is that it is indeed distracting. there is something mystical happening and i’m trying to focus on that and this awkward chain of hand holding really puts me off.

third, as to the protestant issue, well to be honest, i can’t think of one thing they have improved upon in the Catholic Mass. i have nothing against them and love all my friends that are protestant, but we should not be moving in their direction. they are so varied and i know some anglican services in europe can not be compared to some of the various denominations we have here in the states, but i have seen too many that just disgust me. it is all about associations. when i hear of someone standing at the pulpit yelling at people thumping their Bible saying people are going to hell and that God hates f%$s, i know that is a bad stray from the Holy Mass. the snake handlers or those so called churches that look like multimedia conference rooms with enormous flat screen tv’s, again are not improving upon the Holy Mass in anyway and all that really puts me off. there is such dignity in Catholic and Orthodox services that it sickens me to lose any of it. no offense to the many protestant denominations that don’t wave snakes around under the tent, but i think we need to see more of the former pic and not the latter.

just my opinion though. peace!

I agree with you that hand holding during the Our Father is distracting. All I can think about is whether the person next to me has sweaty or clammy hands and when can I let go? I’m sorry I know this sounds immature but I can’t help it. I’d much rather be able to concentrate on the words of the Our Father, which is a really powerful prayer.
Also I agree that this practice seems very Protestant to me and I’m somewhat resentful that it was brought in to begin with. I have nothing against Protestant people, but I love our Catholic faith and the spiritual aspects of the Mass as it is. In general, I can always tell when we sing a Protestant hymn because well, their hymns have kind of a dull, straighforward sound to them. Again, I mean no offense by this but it’s just how I feel.

 

[FAB]

Which Bishop teaches that hand-holding must be done?

Are you a man, Fab? Hand-holding is something women, children and homosexuals do. It is intimate. Men don’t like doing it. Especially with other men and strangers to boot.

One more distracting element in a rite accruing them by the decade. And at an important prayer as well.

Heh. I heard about a parish in Ireland that had to stop ‘the sign of peace’ because there a feud going on between various families. The locals just wouldn’t have it.

Now natives have turned mean. When you can’t give a reasonable discussion, you turn to name calling.How sad.

To answer your question, yes I am a man with wife and children. Not only do I believe that you comment is wrong, it is misguided. I have no problem taking the hand of my brother in Christ or even giving him an embrace.
Earlier I indicate that I work in a prison misistry. I take the hands of those men in prayer. It is a sign that I accept them as a child of God, worthy to be loved and that they are loved by God. In doing so it breaks dowm barriors and they understand that they can believe in something greater than themselves.
Human touch can be an extradinary gift to another in need. to bad you want to reduce it down to some base level.

Peace,
FAb

 

[FAB]

Really, are you actually trying to say that St. John ( a bishop) did NOT have a devotion to Mary, the very person Christ put in his charge?

Or was there some lay person who showed St. John how to be devoted to Mary first?

Or which layman instructed St. Luke (again, a bishop) to create the first Icon of Mary?

Mary for many years in the early church was not recongized with the devotion that we have today. I didn’t say that bishops along the way didn’t recogize her importants, just that the devotion we know today comes from the Layity. Praying the rosary after the second vatican council fell off a great deal. It wasn’t the bishops or the theologians that brought it back, but the personal devotion of the faithful.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Layman]

I have stated a truth. Men don’t like hand-holding. Especially with other men.

To insert such an act into our rite is distracting. If one doesn’t want to hold hands one is still distracted by wondering if the people around you are going to want it.

I asked if you were a man because I can see how a woman might think that hand-holding is nice. Nothing personal about it.

**Had a thought: the fuzziness of the idea of ‘participation’ lets liberals do whatever they want. e.g.:

‘Internal reverence is more important than exterior reverence = dump whatever fittings, actions or rubrics we don’t like’ .

‘We must have more active participation = add in whatever actions, fitting or rubrics we do like’. **

Brilliant! Anything goes!

[Except the TLM. Shudders.]

.

.

*[Note: sarcasm]

 

[FAB]

Great, and I also presume that you are teaching these young men that we are to strike our chests during the Penitential Rite Form A, do a profound bow during the Creed, and do a bow of the head and each mention of the name of Christ, the Trinity, Mary or the saint of the day during Mass.

All of those are requirements for Mass laid forth by the bishops.

And then there is the requriement that the faithful be taught to say or sing the Mass resonses in Latin, per Vatican II (SC 54).

If you are not teaching all of these to those young men, why don’t you start on these first, as they are the requirement that the bishops and the Church have already stated.

And when they have mastered those, then work on optional things, such as hand holding

What makes you think I don’t teach these things. Many that I teach are just coming to know Christ. They need to know Christ and what he taught before they are ready to undrstand the meaning of the various guesters used in the mass.
Knowing the proper movements are meaningless, unless the reasons for them are also known.
Since the GIRM gives no instructions one way or another to how the latity is to recite the Lord’s prayer in mass, only the priest, there is no real harm in taking the hand, or not of your nieghbor.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Layman]

Since the GIRM gives no instructions one way or another to how the latity is to recite the Lord’s prayer in mass, only the priest, there is no real harm in taking the hand, or not of your nieghbor.

Peace,
FAB

And thus the Mass becomes more and more about us and less and less about Him.

I made a joke on these forums about the only place the N.O. had to go in terms of silliness and ‘audience participation’ was a bunch of old ladies dancing around the altar. And then I found out it happens in South America.

 

[Brendan]

What makes you think I don’t teach these things.

OK, I’ll bite, DO you teach them?

They need to know Christ and what he taught before they are ready to undrstand the meaning of the various guesters used in the mass.
Knowing the proper movements are meaningless, unless the reasons for them are also known.

But you are taking them to Mass, correct? In which case, is it your intent that they sit there doing nothing until they learn what the meanings are.

For example, standing or kneeling at particular times have theologic meaning. Are they not to do those until you have explained the significance, or would it not be better to teach them what the Church requres (to stand, kneel, sit, bow, strike their chests) and then instruct them on the meanings of each.

At the very least, you could you the opportunity to teach them to bow at the mention of Christ’s name as a way to pay attention in Mass and to keep it from becoming rote.

And then, once they have the full theologic understanding of what the required rubrics mean, then (and only then) discuss optional theology such as the suplicant nature of the Lord’s Prayer vs the communial nature.

 

[tapinu33]

VII never allowed this, no where in the documents do you see that we are allowed to hold hands or bring in our own practices. You can’t blame the council for the abuses that have crept into our Church, but instead blame the bishops, heretical theologians, and lack true Catholic education.

Vat II in my opinion is responsible for such behaviour. When you relax or change some rules eg taking Our Lord in the hand is now an option but in fact is the norm, taking away alter rails, moving the Tabernacle so much so that when you go into a Church you can’t find Our Lord, (when you enter a Church you should be focused on Our Lord not the Priest) then all these “social” behaviours creep in also.
Bishops and Priests should be addressing these issues and many others like dress code and chatting etc.
In Malta/ Gozo if you enter a church with shorts or a sleeveless t-shirt (man or woman) you are instantly greeted with a large shawl to cover your body as it is grave to show yourself in that way on Sacred ground, or you are asked to leave and return with modest attire.
We should all be on bended knee worshipping Our Lord not chatting and holding hands during prayer, I also see couples with their arms around each other and holding onto each others waists (like lovers).
When you soften the rules its an opening for the devil to enter and take root.
We should all pray for The Holy Father, The Holy Church and The Holy Mass.

 

[BettyM]

Now natives have turned mean. When you can’t give a reasonable discussion, you turn to name calling.How sad.

To answer your question, yes I am a man with wife and children. Not only do I believe that you comment is wrong, it is misguided. I have no problem taking the hand of my brother in Christ or even giving him an embrace.
Earlier I indicate that I work in a prison misistry. I take the hands of those men in prayer. It is a sign that I accept them as a child of God, worthy to be loved and that they are loved by God. In doing so it breaks dowm barriors and they understand that they can believe in something greater than themselves.
Human touch can be an extradinary gift to another in need. to bad you want to reduce it down to some base level.

Peace,
FAb

I have a feeling you do not insist on those prison men holding your hand during prayer if they do not want to.

I see Christian men embrace fequently and that is okay, as long as the other man wants the embrace.

That is what this thread was supposed to be about in the first place, someone insisting on handholding when the other two people were not wanting to.

 

[BettyM]

VII never allowed this, no where in the documents do you see that we are allowed to hold hands or bring in our own practices. You can’t blame the council for the abuses that have crept into our Church, but instead blame the bishops, heretical theologians, and lack true Catholic education.

Yeah, I agree. It’s how people interpreted Vatican II and what they did with that interpretation that brought alot of this in.

 

[FAB]

I have a feeling you do not insist on those prison men holding your hand during prayer if they do not want to.

Actually, they do so willing and understanding of the practice than many posters here.
To me it’s a perfect example of “blessed are those who are poor in spirit”. These men are much more open to the message of Christ.
Peace,
FAB

 

[FAB]

OK, I’ll bite, DO you teach them?

But you are taking them to Mass, correct? In which case, is it your intent that they sit there doing nothing until they learn what the meanings are.

For example, standing or kneeling at particular times have theologic meaning. Are they not to do those until you have explained the significance, or would it not be better to teach them what the Church requres (to stand, kneel, sit, bow, strike their chests) and then instruct them on the meanings of each.

At the very least, you could you the opportunity to teach them to bow at the mention of Christ’s name as a way to pay attention in Mass and to keep it from becoming rote.

And then, once they have the full theologic understanding of what the required rubrics mean, then (and only then) discuss optional theology such as the suplicant nature of the Lord’s Prayer vs the communial nature.

When I teach the mass, I teach the the movements and guesters and the meaning and purpose for those actions. When it comes to the Lord’s prayer I fully inform them about the practice of holding each others hands and thast it is a matter of personal preference.

Peace,
FAB

 

[BettyM]

so a Protestant practice is worse than a pagan celebration?

Well, first of all that is not what I said.

But since you asked, my answer is sometimes. It would depend on the practice or lack thereof. A pagan practice could be very minor and be very neutral to the Catholic Church, such as a wreath hanging on your door once meant fertility and today we use it to remind us of God’s unending love. A protestant practice may actually have developed out of protesting what the Church has taught us, such as not having confessions to a priest when we sin but only in private prayer to God, missing out on God’s grace… And then on the other hand, a pagan practice could be something you wouldn’t want to adopt because of its going against God and being evil. A protestant practice adopted by Catholic churches recently is Vacation Bible School, but that practice does not change the tradition of the Mass.

Alot of the practices the Church does that were once pagan were Christianized but your question to me is which is worse: pagan or protestant and that would depend on the practice.
I, personally, wouldn’t want to adopt either. I assume most of the pagan ones you are referring to have to do with Christmas, and other holidays.

This post developed out of someone wanting to pray the Our Father with head bowed and hands clasped and someone insisting on handholding. If one wants to raise hands at the Our Father and hold ones hand they need to be considerate of the people near them who want to pray in the traditional manner of a bowed head.

 

[BettyM]

In Malta/ Gozo if you enter a church with shorts or a sleeveless t-shirt (man or woman) you are instantly greeted with a large shawl to cover your body as it is grave to show yourself in that way on Sacred ground, or you are asked to leave and return with modest attire.
.

I think that sounds very appropriate.