Holding Hands during the Our Father

[Donna_P]

Ha!!! Good one!

 

[mattkubes]

Ok…I know we embraced and shook hands. I’m not sure we did hold hands. The woman next to me was African, family behind from Bavaria, and kids to the left from Germany. Anyway, the embracing was very moving. There were 100,000 in the Square.

If it just moves us to focus on human relationships and a feeling of connectedness, it has subverted the entire point of the liturgy.

 

[Donna_P]

Well children, this went where I never expected it to go.

1. The Church does not teach or support hand holding.
2. The doxology is not supposed to come right after the Our Father in the Catholic Mass.

Are there liturgical abuses of other kinds? yes. Do bishops know about all of them in all of the parishes. No. However, I think the new crop of Bishops today have a better handle and make sure the priests under them are teaching what is supposed to be taught. Look at what happened with the HHS mandate! GO Bishops!!!

We have a great Church. It’s nice to know so many Catholics think so to and care about Her.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

The source is the GIRM. It’s not in there. No where! Period. Father Rocky has commented on it. The Bishop from the Diocese of Green Bay has come out and told the parishes there that they are not to do it.

Generally speaking, a priest can tell you not to do it. he can say nothing but he cannot tell you TO do it.

This is different. The GIRM is silent, therefore the Church (i.e The Holy See, the Vatican, the Pope, whatever…) has given no instruction that it is not to be done.
The Ordinary of a diocese though, can make these rules for his own diocese.
They do not apply to everyone.

The GIRM does not say that my hands should be folded in prayer or palm-to-palm either. If I choose to to palm-to-palm, and the custom is your parish is folded,
are you going to have a problem with that too?

And I will again reiterate, I am not a “hand-holder”, I have only once had a priest “instruct” the congregation to do so,
and that was swiftly handled by the Pastor of the parish, who told the priest that he did not have the authority to change the rubrics.
However, if a family or a group of friends, want to hold hands during the Our Father,
why, for the love of Pete,
do people have such a problem with it??

 

[aicirt]

If it just moves us to focus on human relationships and a feeling of connectedness, it has subverted the entire point of the liturgy.

Really? This is an unique experience that probably only happens once in a person’s life…to attend Mass at St. Peter’s where there are 100,000 brothers and sisters in Christ there with you from all over the world.

The woman from Africa I kissed on both cheeks. I don’t kiss people on both cheeks. And she immediately did the same. Why? Because I had wondered about her path, her journey. I can only imagine. Maybe it was totally peaceful maybe not. After Mass, she came over and took my hands to say goodbye.

The kids in front of us were waving the Lebanon flag. I thought about them too. They come from an area of the world that is full of strife.

Each one was there because of Christ. Each carried a part of Christ with them when they came and hopefully more when they left.

 

[mattkubes]

This is different. The GIRM is silent, therefore the Church (i.e The Holy See, the Vatican, the Pope, whatever…) has given no instruction that it is not to be done.
The Ordinary of a diocese though, can make these rules for his own diocese.
They do not apply to everyone.

That’s not how the Church works. We don’t have license to do something just because it isn’t explicitly forbidden. The GIRM doesn’t rule out the possibility of proceeding up the Communion line on a pogo-stick, but we shouldn’t do that either.

Honestly, I don’t have a problem if a family wants to do this, although I don’t see how it helps them focus more fully on God. If I attended the NO and my family wanted to do this, I’d kindly refuse. But hand-holding seems to have become a de facto obligation for all in some parishes. That’s not right.

 

[mattkubes]

Really?

Yes. Sharing our journeys with each other might make ok dinner conversation, but it has nothing to do with the liturgy.

 

[thewanderer]

That’s not how the Church works. We don’t have license to do something just because it isn’t explicitly forbidden. The GIRM doesn’t rule out the possibility of proceeding up the Communion line on a pogo-stick, but we shouldn’t do that either.

Honestly, I don’t have a problem if a family wants to do this, although I don’t see how it helps them focus more fully on God. If I attended the NO and my family wanted to do this, I’d kindly refuse. But hand-holding seems to have become a de facto obligation for all in some parishes. That’s not right.

See, this kind of thinking really confuses me. How is it possible to have organic development in practices and traditions if the people are forbidden from doing anything outside of the proscribed rubrics? Sure, not every position or practice not proscribed by the rubrics would be a good addition to the Mass, but I don’t see how you can argue against a particular practice simply on the basis that it isn’t in the rubrics. You can argue hat it is wrong for the priest to tell his parish to do such a thing, but you cannot say it is wrong for an individual or two to do simply because it is not proscribed.

 

[TimothyH]

Yes. Sharing our journeys with each other might make ok dinner conversation, but it has nothing to do with the liturgy.

This is a very sad view of our faith. I mean that it makes me sad to think that some can be so alone in the midst of our Church, or that one could intentionally put themselves in that lonely place.

We are united in Christ through reception of the Eucharist in a way which is stronger and more real than any unity we have with anyone now here on earth. That bond of unity as member’s of Christ’s body through reception of the Eucharist is stronger and more real than the relationship we have with our fellow countrymen, our children, our parents and even stronger than the sacramental covenant bond we have with our husband or wife.

The second epiclisis in Eucharistic Prayer IV says…

***Look, O Lord, upon the Sacrifice which you yourself have provided for your Church, and grant in your loving kindness to all who partake of this one Bread **and one Chalice that, gathered into one body by the Holy Spirit, they may truly become a living sacrifice in Christ to the praise of your glory. *

The intercessions in Eucharistic Prayer II asks that, “We may merit to be co-heirs to eternal life” and the intercession in Eucharistic Prayer IV call upon God the Father to, “Listen graciously to the prayers of this family, whom you have summoned before you.”

We can argue about whether holding hands is against the rules or not, but the words of the Eucharistic prayers shows that a community-family relationship through membership in Christ’s body in recpetion of the Eucharist is a fundamental element of the Mass in particular, and of our religion in general.

Catholicism is not a Jesus and me religion like Evangelical Protestantism.

The fact is that we are one family and our sin and vitue have merit for the salvation of others. Maybe cars and suburban living have masked the fact that the parish is a family but if you and I make it to heaven, we will love each other infinitely more than we ever loved anything or anyone here on earth.

-Tim-

 

[mattkubes]

This is a very sad view of our faith.

You obviously haven’t read the rest of this thread. I made very similar points to the ones you just did. The fact remains that hand holding adds nothing to the bond that is achieved through prayer and reception of Holy Communion. It only seems to serve as a distraction, even if those who prefer to do it don’t see it that way. The liturgy is centered on God. Anything that moves the focus horizontally detracts from the purpose of the liturgy.

 

[TimothyH]

You obviously haven’t read the rest of this thread. I made very similar points to the ones you just did. The fact remains that hand holding adds nothing to the bond that is achieved through prayer and reception of Holy Communion. It only seems to serve as a distraction, even if those who prefer to do it don’t see it that way. The liturgy is centered on God. Anything that moves the focus horizontally detracts from the purpose of the liturgy.

And I have pointed out the family-community relationship - horizontal as you put it - is included in the liturgy itself, in the Eucharistic prayers themselves.

It cannot detract from the purpose of the liturgy becasue it is one of the fundamental elements of the liturgy.

The horizontal element is not a preference. It is fundamental to the celebration of the Eucharist itself.

-Tim-

 

[adrift]

In my parish, the hand holding was introduced through the priest. He also held hands with the servers. So we are talking not about what individuals might do but what has been introduced for the community to do. This did not occur spontaneously. It came about as an unauthorized addition.

What about raising hands with the priest in mass?

As for the orans, that is in the rubrics and it is not allowed.

 

[mattkubes]

It’s not surprising that those EPs mention the people as a collective since they’re addressed to God. And although I don’t think they accomplish this as clearly as EP I, they’re still directed to God. That’s not the “horizontal” I’m talking about - holding hands is since it seems to be all about us.

I’ll stick with Cardinal Ratzinger on this one:
“If the Liturgy appears first of all as the workshop for our activity, then what is essential is being forgotten: God. For the Liturgy is not about us, but about God.”

 

[Oneofthewomen]

You obviously haven’t read the rest of this thread. I made very similar points to the ones you just did. The fact remains that hand holding adds nothing to the bond that is achieved through prayer and reception of Holy Communion. It only seems to serve as a distraction, even if those who prefer to do it don’t see it that way. The liturgy is centered on God. Anything that moves the focus horizontally detracts from the purpose of the liturgy.

Re: the part I bolded-
the best line I ever heard about the the “hoizontal” & “vertical” aspects of Mass is this-
***both are necessary, you can’t have the cross with out both!! ***

 

[thewanderer]

You obviously haven’t read the rest of this thread. I made very similar points to the ones you just did. The fact remains that hand holding adds nothing to the bond that is achieved through prayer and reception of Holy Communion. It only seems to serve as a distraction, even if those who prefer to do it don’t see it that way. The liturgy is centered on God. Anything that moves the focus horizontally detracts from the purpose of the liturgy.

Just out if curiosity, why do you claim this? As I mentioned before, the liturgy is the *public/] worship of God by the Church, not by individuals in the Church. So everyone coming to Mass to worship God should come with the understandin that this is the prayer of the whole Church, and not just some private devotion. Because of this it seems quite fitting to have some sort of external sign to remind everyone that this is the worship of the Church, not just of individuals so long as it is not taken to imply that the Church is the focus of the Mass. God must always be the focus of the Mass, but one can focus on God either privately or in recognition that they are worshipping God as a community, the community ofthe Church. Neither ofthese options removes the focus from God.

After thinking about this more, I do not see what holding hands at the Our Father adds to the Mass because there is already a sign of unity in the handshake of peace. But your reasons for arguing against holding hands at the Our Father do not seem correct.*

 

[adrift]

No, feel free to pick away. I’m honestly trying to figure out what the rules actually are.

So instead of saying it is not against the rubrics I should simply have said that it is not wrong for people to do as a personal practice (as opposed to a practice of the whole assembly)?

actually… now that I’ve phrased it like that I realise that I’m still not clear on the idea of a practice being ‘of the asssembly’. Ok, so it definitely means the priest cannot tell his parishoners that this is the posture they should adopt. Does it mean that it would be wrong for everyone in attendance to take up this posture? even if they were not specifically encouraged by the priest?

Practice of the assembly means to me that which everyone is expected to do. The priest shouldn’t tell the congregation to hold hands but here they did. They use to drop hands at the end of the Our Father. Eventually the priest had them hold hands all the way through the “For Thine” I don’t know when it started but at that point not only were they holding hands but now they raise their hands up.

I don’t care if others do it as long as they respect those who do not. Most of the time this is the case. I wonder if they knew that it wasn’t part of Mass that they would still do it?

 

[mattkubes]

So everyone coming to Mass to worship God should come with the understandin that this is the prayer of the whole Church, and not just some private devotion. Because of this it seems quite fitting to have some sort of external sign to remind everyone that this is the worship of the Church, not just of individuals so long as it is not taken to imply that the Church is the focus of the Mass.

Our communal gathering at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is that external sign. I find it difficult to believe that holding hands during that one part of the Mass was developed as a way to make sure people knew they weren’t just in this alone. If that’s the case, why not hold hands the entire time? No, this seems much more likely to be a holdover from the emotionalism of the 1960s.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

And I will again reiterate, I am not a “hand-holder”, I have only once had a priest “instruct” the congregation to do so,
and that was swiftly handled by the Pastor of the parish, who told the priest that he did not have the authority to change the rubrics.
However, if a family or a group of friends, want to hold hands during the Our Father,
why, for the love of Pete,
do people have such a problem with it??

I think it is because it rarely stays with in the family or group of friends. When people do this they begin to think everyone else wants to join them. I don’t do it. I prefer to pray with my hands together. Once at a parish there was a group of parishners who held hands and instinctively began to look around and reach out to whoever else would maybe want to join in, of course the prayer had already begun and was continuing while they were all getting themselves in handholding position.

Also, at a parish I attend during the week, there are two people that sit by each other and hold hands during the Our Father and they do the same thing, look around and try to get others to join them. Many people have stopped sitting in that corner but sometimes they do reach out and get others to hold their hands that aren’t even in their pews and then end up looking like a knot reaching from pew to pew and twisting around to make sure everyone has their hand held.

It is easy to say, if someone wants to do it, why not, but the problem is frequently they want to include others, who maybe don’t want to and then those that don’t want to are left to feel pressured or uncomfortable during the Our Father, which is not what should be happening at mass, making people feel uncomfortable.

 

[thewanderer]

Our communal gathering at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is that external sign. I find it difficult to believe that holding hands during that one part of the Mass was developed as a way to make sure people knew they weren’t just in this alone. If that’s the case, why not hold hands the entire time? No, this seems much more likely to be a holdover from the emotionalism of the 1960s.

This is simply conjecture.

I am absolutely positive that for at least some it is a sign of the unity of the Church. I am also sure that that is not the motivation behind all of those who do it. However, it seems unfair to condemn hose who have the right intention behind heir actions simply because there are others who do not have the right intention.

 

[adrift]

This is simply conjecture.

I am absolutely positive that for at least some it is a sign of the unity of the Church. I am also sure that that is not the motivation behind all of those who do it. However, it seems unfair to condemn hose who have the right intention behind heir actions simply because there are others who do not have the right intention.

I never knew that this was suppose to be a sign of unity. I wonder what the majority of people who do this would say when asked why they were doing it.