Holding Hands during the Our Father

[ProVobis]

Y’all May not know this but, every time the troops go out on Convoy duty in Iraq and still in Afghanistan , Hold hands and some take a Knee and say the" Our Father " Maybe the closer You are to death The more Real you Faith becomes.

I held my dad’s hand on his deathbed. But then my focus was him.

 

[thewanderer]

Of course, even on the football field that is common. We are talking about the sacrifice of the Mass though. Governed by a completely different kind of rules and “realness” as in the Real Presence which believe it or not is actually MORE serious than mere death.

Yes, we are talking about the Sacrifice of the Mass. The question boils down to one of whether such a sign of unity at the Our Father is detrimental to a correct understanding of the Mass. If it is not intrinsically detrimental, and is spiritually helpful to those who participate in such a sign, then there is nothing wrong with those who desire to participate in it participating. This is very different from the abuse of such a practice which has already been established as requiring veryone to participate in said practice or having a priest encourage such a practice.

 

[Moore11]

I held my dad’s hand on his deathbed. But then my focus was him.

Provobis. I did this also. I was 19. We are blessed to have had a chance to actually say goodbye and tell someone we love them. So few never get that chance.

 

[Moore11]

Yes, we are talking about the Sacrifice of the Mass. The question boils down to one of whether such a sign of unity at the Our Father is detrimental to a correct understanding of the Mass. If it is not intrinsically detrimental, and is spiritually helpful to those who participate in such a sign, then there is nothing wrong with those who desire to participate in it participating. This is very different from the abuse of such a practice which has already been established as requiring veryone to participate in said practice or having a priest encourage such a practice.

Ah, yes but what is the spontaneity in everyone doing this at every mass like a robot. It is a horizontal not vertical cultural habit from the 60s type thinking. There is no argument for saying that at every mass people just happen to all have the same idea of touching others during a certain time.

 

[thewanderer]

Ah, yes but what is the spontaneity in everyone doing this at every mass like a robot. It is a horizontal not vertical cultural habit from the 60s type thinking. There is no argument for saying that at every mass people just happen to all have the same idea of touching others during a certain time.

It sounds to me like you are still talking about the liturgical abuse that this practice is often involved in.

Tell me, do you have a problem with siblings holding hands as a sign of unity during Mass? Or with a mother putting her arm around her spouse/child as a sign of unity during the liturgy? Or even a mother holding her child close to her breast consistantly at a specific time, say after receiving the Eucharist?

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with having a sign of unity among people during Mass. There isn’t even something intrinsically wrong in engaging in the same sign of unity at the same time every Mass. In other words, if you want to say that the practice of holding hands during the Our Father as a sign of unity is wrong, even when it is not a liturgical abuse, you need to argue from either what holding hands signifies or from the fitness of the Our Father as a point in time for such a practice. It really is that simple.

 

[Moore11]

It sounds to me like you are still talking about the liturgical abuse that this practice is often involved in.

Tell me, do you have a problem with siblings holding hands as a sign of unity during Mass? Or with a mother putting her arm around her spouse/child as a sign of unity during the liturgy? Or even a mother holding her child close to her breast consistantly at a specific time, say after receiving the Eucharist?

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with having a sign of unity among people during Mass. There isn’t even something intrinsically wrong in engaging in the same sign of unity at the same time every Mass. In other words, if you want to say that the practice of holding hands during the Our Father as a sign of unity is wrong, even when it is not a liturgical abuse, you need to argue from either what holding hands signifies or from the fitness of the Our Father as a point in time for such a practice. It really is that simple.

Of course I touch my family during Mass, I hold my children, put my arm around my sweet wife. What I dont do is put my arm around another man’s wife that is sitting next to me. I think you are not looking at the reality of what is happening. People dont just decide “I’m gonna hold that stranger’s hand next to me for a time while I recite a prayer, directed at God in the context of a Sacrifice to signify unity!”. No one does that. And if someone does do that they are not focusing on what is going on in front of them. And if by some chance some one did, the copying of that gesture would not be done by the entire population of the Mass.

It isn’t voluntary, and it isn’t spontaneous. It is organized, roboticized habitualized and, expected.
It is beyond me how anyone can see it differently.

 

[odile53]

I occasionally see some families, spouses, etc. holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer. Occasionally strangers do this as well. What I’ve never seen is people scooching out of their pews to hold hands across the aisle, anything that disruptive. Never have seen it.

I usually just fold my hands during the Our Father.

The only comment I have about all of this is: Isn’t it nice that the pews at Mass are filled enough that we have to worry about some stranger holding our hand during the Our Father? There was a time that you wouldn’t be close enough to anyone to be able to do this.

 

[thewanderer]

Of course I touch my family during Mass, I hold my children, put my arm around my sweet wife. What I dont do is put my arm around another man’s wife that is sitting next to me. I think you are not looking at the reality of what is happening. People dont just decide “I’m gonna hold that stranger’s hand next to me for a time while I recite a prayer, directed at God in the context of a Sacrifice to signify unity!”. No one does that. And if someone does do that they are not focusing on what is going on in front of them. And if by some chance some one did, the copying of that gesture would not be done by the entire population of the Mass.

It isn’t voluntary, and it isn’t spontaneous. It is organized, roboticized habitualized and, expected.
It is beyond me how anyone can see it differently.

Maybe because I am attending a different parish than you are, where some participate, but many don’t. Those that do don’t expect the others to join in. It is hardly imposed or “roboticized”.

Again, it sounds to me like you are speaking of an actual liturgical abuse, not at all what I am talking about. I am already excluding the instance of the liturgical abuse when I talk about the criterion for claiming that it is wrong.

I was really struck, though, by the fact that you think of your fellow parishoners as complete strangers… I mean, yes, parishes are large and it can be hard, if not impossible to get to know everyone in your parish so you are not going to know everyone personally. However, my whole point earlier was that people can come to Mass with the desire to worship God and still have two differen attitudes. On the one hand, that they are coming privately to worship, you can add to this coming as an individual familial unit if you like, on the other hand they are coming as a member of the universla Catholic Church to worship God. It is a little inconsistant with the latter to think of ones fellow parishoners as strangers.

 

[denitaA]

Personally, I think it’s too distracting, and too “Protestant.” But that’s just my opinion.:yup:

 

[bearer]

I don’t mind holding hands. If it were liturgically abusive, I would stop doing it.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Jesus taught us to pray when He gave us the Lord’s Prayer

He also told us that children are often more capable of seeing the Truth than we are as adults.

How do we teach our children to pray?

 

[utah_rose]

Yes. And I’m a stubborn old lady to boot. I will usually just fold my hands (unless my husband is next to me and takes my hand). I think this dates back to the charismatic movement. But what really bothers me more is when some parishes during the Sign of Peace—everyone goes every which way to greet their friends and the priest even comes down from the altar to shake almost everyone’s hands! But, I offer this up for Penance, though I wonder what Our Lord thinks of all of this when there is an area in the back of the church for greeting before and after Mass. I see this as disrespectful but maybe I’m just old fashioned.

 

[choliks]

Yes. And I’m a stubborn old lady to boot. I will usually just fold my hands (unless my husband is next to me and takes my hand). I think this dates back to the charismatic movement. But what really bothers me more is when some parishes during the Sign of Peace—everyone goes every which way to greet their friends and the priest even comes down from the altar to shake almost everyone’s hands! But, I offer this up for Penance, though I wonder what Our Lord thinks of all of this when there is an area in the back of the church for greeting before and after Mass. I see this as disrespectful but maybe I’m just old fashioned.

Yikes! You mean he was on top of the altar all this time? This really counts as an abuse! Contact the bishop!

Just pulling your leg.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Oh, I agree 100%!!
In fact, hand-holding is nothing compared to this for me.
My biggest pet-peeve is the people who continue to walk around shaking hands even after Father has started the Agnus Dei!

I do not go to the parish that is a 5 minute walk from my house, in part because of the “meet & greet” at the time of peace.

But what really bothers me more is when some parishes during the Sign of Peace—everyone goes every which way to greet their friends and the priest even comes down from the altar to shake almost everyone’s hands! But, I offer this up for Penance, though I wonder what Our Lord thinks of all of this when there is an area in the back of the church for greeting before and after Mass. I see this as disrespectful but maybe I’m just old fashioned.

 

[choliks]

Oh, I agree 100%!!
In fact, hand-holding is nothing compared to this for me.
My biggest pet-peeve is the people who continue to walk around shaking hands even after Father has started the Agnus Dei!

I do not go to the parish that is a 5 minute walk from my house, in part because of the “meet & greet” at the time of peace.

Not to derail the thread… but how come this is prevalent in American parishes? In our part of the world, people usually just nod to each other (the priest nods to the congregation from his place). Everybody reverts their attention to the altar when the Agnus Dei is either recited or sung.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Not to derail the thread… but how come this is prevalent in American parishes? In our part of the world, people usually just nod to each other (the priest nods to the congregation from his place). Everybody reverts their attention to the altar when the Agnus Dei is either recited or sung.

I don’t understand it myself.

It happens in my diocese to varying degrees and my guess is that it stems from a misunderstanding of the theology of Mass and a misguided attempt to foster “unity”.

It would make for an interesting discussion, maybe the Mods will split this into a new thread.

 

[choliks]

I don’t understand it myself.

It happens in my diocese to varying degrees and my guess is that it stems from a misunderstanding of the theology of Mass and a misguided attempt to foster “unity”.

It would make for an interesting discussion, maybe the Mods will split this into a new thread.

I agree. I think it would be more of a sociological discussion than a theological one.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Agree, but many bishops have done both of these and both of course are wrong but to a different degree.

So…if I get you right…a Bishop is supposed to personnally stop the laity from holding hands during the Our Father? Because that is the most pressing problem facing the Church?

 

[Moore11]

Maybe because I am attending a different parish than you are, where some participate, but many don’t. Those that do don’t expect the others to join in. It is hardly imposed or “roboticized”.

Again, it sounds to me like you are speaking of an actual liturgical abuse, not at all what I am talking about. I am already excluding the instance of the liturgical abuse when I talk about the criterion for claiming that it is wrong.

I was really struck, though, by the fact that you think of your fellow parishoners as complete strangers… I mean, yes, parishes are large and it can be hard, if not impossible to get to know everyone in your parish so you are not going to know everyone personally. However, my whole point earlier was that people can come to Mass with the desire to worship God and still have two differen attitudes. On the one hand, that they are coming privately to worship, you can add to this coming as an individual familial unit if you like, on the other hand they are coming as a member of the universla Catholic Church to worship God. It is a little inconsistant with the latter to think of ones fellow parishoners as strangers.

I knew when I wrote strangers that someone would seize upon that. Can we just agree that for practical purposes that the person next to me at mass who’s name I do not know is termed a stranger just for the purposes of this conversation. We are at the Cathedral in our diocese it is big and in the middle of downtown, My wife and I are well known, and are involved with many ministries. Most who sit by us know us and don’t try to shove a hand in my face, but we are 1 family and there may be 1 or two others who don’t hold hands. Chances are that somewhere around us is going to be a “stranger.”
I have lived in three diocese and have attended many parishes and in every single one 90% hold hands, most across the isle. There are seven parishes in my city and every single one of them has a big chain of human hands across america every Mass. It was that way at my Catholic high school, my Catholic College, My wifes Catholic college, the diocese we lived in 10 years ago, and now. Guess where is wasn’t prevalent? in Italy.

 

[thewanderer]

I knew when I wrote strangers that someone would seize upon that. Can we just agree that for practical purposes that the person next to me at mass who’s name I do not know is termed a stranger just for the purposes of this conversation. We are at the Cathedral in our diocese it is big and in the middle of downtown, My wife and I are well known, and are involved with many ministries. Most who sit by us know us and don’t try to shove a hand in my face, but we are 1 family and there may be 1 or two others who don’t hold hands. Chances are that somewhere around us is going to be a “stranger.”
I have lived in three diocese and have attended many parishes and in every single one 90% hold hands, most across the isle. There are seven parishes in my city and every single one of them has a big chain of human hands across america every Mass.

Like I said, of course there are going to be people you don’t know personally! Please don’t take what I said the wrong way… Of course it makes sense to use the word stranger when trying to differentiate family and friends from aquaintances or people we have never met before!! It was just that the fact that you used the word made me think of the difference in attitude that can exist. It is possible to have a positive attitude towards those one has never met, just as it is possible to have a negative or ambivalent attitude towards those one has never meant. I was just trying to highlight this point again and emphasize the importance of recognizing the fact that the Catholic Church emphasizes the fact that we are social creatures, both naturally and in our spiritual life and is set up accordingly. We are supposed to think kindly of everyone, but especially those who share in the life of the Church. We should have a special affection for all Catholics, and this seems especially fitting at Mass, the public worship of the Church.

I’m sorry if it seemed as though I misunderstood you or if it sounded like I was accusing you of not recognizing this. I really didn’t mean either of those things. It was just the use of the word stranger that reminded me of this difference.