Holding Hands during the "Our Father"

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I “came back” to the Catholic Church in 1984. I don’t really have any opinion about the way things used to be - I don’t remember it. I spent some time seeking - since most of my family have left the Catholic Church - are Methodists, Evangelicals or Mormons now. When I chose to come back, I found a Church that was alive and responsive. I participate and I love my faith. For me, holding hands during the Our Father was a very natural gesture, and one that I wouldn’t give up unless specifically instructed to do so. I will look first to my Pastor, then to my Cardinal/Archbishop for guidance.
 
That is an interesting article, but keep in mind that it is an opinion just like anyone else’s and is not binding on anyone in any way.
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The article references Vatican’s II’s “Consitution of the Sacred Liturgy” (#22) and “Code of Canon Law” (#838) which are not opinions.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2S.HTM
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Didn’t the person who on their own personal initiative introduced holding hands during the “Our Father” break canon 838?
 
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ncjohn:
Thanks for reminding me that that one Bishop has expressed his opinion for his diocese. 👍 I had forgotten that it was a straight out “no.” I had remembered it being just a strong discouragement. So there’s the answer for those of you in the St. Louis diocese.
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Well, as I have stated before, always best to check with your own Bishop.
I’m sure there are many others both ways (I do know that in Cleveland, Orans is being ENcouraged as a way to get people away from Handholding)
But as a homeschooling Mom with laundry creeping out to get me, there is only so much I can do!😉
 
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Madia:
The article references Vatican’s II’s “Consitution of the Sacred Liturgy” (#22) and “Code of Canon Law” (#838) which are not opinions.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2S.HTM
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Didn’t the person who on their own personal initiative introduced holding hands during the “Our Father” break canon 838?
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Another good opportunity to state…
Silence in the GIRM does not override any other liturgical document.
 
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Madia:
The article references Vatican’s II’s “Consitution of the Sacred Liturgy” (#22) and “Code of Canon Law” (#838) which are not opinions.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2S.HTM
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Didn’t the person who on their own personal initiative introduced holding hands during the “Our Father” break canon 838?
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That’s nice, but with all due respect there’s nothing in those documents that in any way addresses the issue.

There just isn’t any prohibition at this time and it’s up to the local Bishop.

As to whether the original person did or didn’t, since it was probably a personal gesture or some spontaneous group thing, I would say no. Regardless though, it has existed for decades without the Church prohibiting it, so its initial origin isn’t really at issue any more.
 
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ncjohn:
Regardless, one should act in charity in not attempting to force their preference on anyone else, or to judge them as more or less devoted because of it.
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I really just have to ask here…
If it’s not okay to judge someone as being more or less devoted because they want to do something that is not historically Catholic (handholding in mass), then why is it okay to slap an overly devout label on those who want to do something that is historically Catholic (kneeling to receive Communion)?

Perhaps if each parish or each set of parishes offered a historically Catholic Mass as well as all the modern ones we are offered, everyone could be satisfied. That is true charity.
 
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ncjohn:
Regardless though, it has existed for decades without the Church prohibiting it, so its initial origin isn’t really at issue any more.
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Liturgical dance existed for decades too.
The Vatican takes time, this is for sure.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Liturgical dance existed for decades too.
The Vatican takes time, this is for sure.
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Liturgical dance has specific written documents outlawing it, since the mid-70’s at least that I know of.

Which is another argument to why one can’t consider holding hands wrong, much less prohibited. When the Vatican wants to stop something, they write a document and stop it. They don’t let it go on for decades in spite of all the people questioning it.

And especially given that *Redemptionis Sacramentum * just came out dealing with liturgical abuses and specifically did NOT address it, it is pretty safe to say that the Vatican does not at this time consider it an abuse.
 
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ComradeAndrei:
My personal opinion is that I don’t like holding hands during the Our Father because it is too protestant. This prayer should be upwards, to God, not outwards as some “community” thing.
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The opposite is true. With Protestants, it’s “me, God, and my bible”, they do socialize with one another, but they don’t have the Church Millitant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant in their theologies. I don’t think God will be too happy with people who make holy hours all the time, say countless rosaries, go to daily Mass and confession, learn Church documents- including the Bible, and ignore the person sitting next to them in the pews- who may be hurting, whose faith may be struggling, who goes to Mass week after week, and no one goes up to them and introduces themselves or notices when they’re gone.
 
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ncjohn:
Liturgical dance has specific written documents outlawing it, since the mid-70’s at least that I know of.

Which is another argument to why one can’t consider holding hands wrong, much less prohibited. When the Vatican wants to stop something, they write a document and stop it. They don’t let it go on for decades in spite of all the people questioning it.

And especially given that *Redemptionis Sacramentum * just came out dealing with liturgical abuses and specifically did NOT address it, it is pretty safe to say that the Vatican does not at this time consider it an abuse.
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And this…
**A question of “inculturation”?
**“Dance in the Liturgy” squarely faces the question of whether certain provisions of Sacrosanctum Concilium might be used to justify liturgical dance. The relevant passage reads: In matters which do not affect the faith or the well-being of an entire community, the Church does not wish, even in the Liturgy, to impose a rigid uniformity; on the contrary, she respects and fosters the genius and talents of various races and peoples. Whatever in their way of life is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error, she looks upon with benevolence and if possible keeps it intact, and sometimes even admits it into the Liturgy provided it accords with the genuine and authentic liturgical spirit.6

was used to override for many years by moderists.
Eventhough it is pointed out in many documents that this is something that should not be done, if someone wants to encourage a congregation to do it, that person will find a way.

The Vatican has been slow to overcome the innovations but it is happening.

Praise be to Jesus Christ
Now and Forever.
 
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m134e5:
The opposite is true. With Protestants, it’s “me, God, and my bible”, they do socialize with one another, but they don’t have the Church Millitant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant in their theologies. I don’t think God will be too happy with people who make holy hours all the time, say countless rosaries, go to daily Mass and confession, learn Church documents- including the Bible, and ignore the person sitting next to them in the pews- who may be hurting, whose faith may be struggling, who goes to Mass week after week, and no one goes up to them and introduces themselves or notices when they’re gone.
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Just because I don’t physically want to touch someone while I am focusing on Our Lord doesn’t mean that I don’t care about them.

Some responsibilty is on that person as well. Stick around in the back and get to know someone. It helps tons.
 
That’s nice, but with all due respect there’s nothing in those documents that in any way addresses the issue.
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What about the following section (22. 3.) from “Consitution of the Sacred Liturgy”?
  1. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.
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Madia:
What about the following section (22. 3.) from “Consitution of the Sacred Liturgy”?
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Madia, this has all been beaten to death on numerous threads.

The Church, despite being aware of this for decades now, has declined through two revisions of the GIRM and a document specifically written to address liturgical abuses–Redemptionis Sacramentum–to address this in any way as an abuse, or to consider it to be a “change in the liturgy.”

The USCCB has officially stated that they have no position on it.

It is up to the Bishop with jurisdiction at this time.
 
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ncjohn:
Madia, this has all been beaten to death on numerous threads.

The Church, despite being aware of this for decades now, has declined through two revisions of the GIRM and a document specifically written to address liturgical abuses–Redemptionis Sacramentum–to address this in any way as an abuse, or to consider it to be a “change in the liturgy.”

The USCCB has officially stated that they have no position on it.

It is up to the Bishop with jurisdiction at this time.
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May I stick my finger up your nose during the Our Father since there’s no document from Rome specifically prohibiting the practice?
 
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oldfogey:
I also associate the “For Thine, etc” with Protestant prayer because when I was growing up, it was never said by Catholics, but my Protestant friends all knew it. If you read the Didache, which is a fascinating look at the early church, almost the exact prayer is there, but not connected to the Our Father.

I personally think it was added to make the Mass more palatable to Protestants, and that the rationale that it is an old part of the liturgy is not convincing since it could have been inserted somewhere else if it was such an improtant prayer in its own right.
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“Deliver us Lord from every evil…for Thine is the Kingdom…” does pre-date the bible and it can, or something close to it, can be found in the Didache.

When you hear protestants say it, just remind them that they are giving a nod to their Catholic roots. 👍
 
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AlanFromWichita:
So before Mass started, I was explaining this and regaled her with the tale of how this hand-holding thing always struck me as slightly Protestant, and that they started doing it when I was away from Church, plus they did it Without Consulting Me.
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Oh, that’s something that particularly irritates me, when things are done Without Consulting Me. I operate under the theory that no change should ever occur in my life without my prior approval.

Sadly, I can’t get anyone else to cooperate with me and change occurs willy-nilly whether I want it to or not. To quote James Earl Jones as Maggie Simpson: “This is indeed a disturbing universe.” :bigyikes:

Hold fast to your principles, Alan. If you cave and start holding hands, then I’ll start holding hands, then everyone will start holding hands. It’ll be anarchy. :nope:
 
Dr. Bombay:
May I stick my finger up your nose during the Our Father since there’s no document from Rome specifically prohibiting the practice?
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Dr Bombay,

I’ve come to expect much more insightful things from you than such a flippant response. 😦 This is in the same category as we saw on previous threads where the suggestion was juggling or bar b quing in the choir loft. Show me somewhere where this is happening and I’m sure you’ll see a quick and appropriate response.

And as a serious response to your non-serious question, I think we both know that the answer is actually “yes.” What any individual does in spontaneous response is outside the rubrics. And I’m equally sure that if anyone was to try to introduce such a gesture as a “practice” it would be dealt with.

Quite frankly, you do neither yourself nor your cause any service in trying to create ridiculous scenarios for which there is ample recourse and avenue for correction, and trying to compare them to something that has been a longstanding practice which the Church has specifically chosen not to address.

I continue to pray we can stop sniping at each other over these petty matters and be charitable in allowing some latitude for expressing our devotion.

Peace,
 
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