Holding Hands during the "Our Father"

[Dr.Bombay]

ncjohn:

Dr Bombay,

I’ve come to expect much more insightful things from you than such a flippant response. This is in the same category as we saw on previous threads where the suggestion was juggling or bar b quing in the choir loft. Show me somewhere where this is happening and I’m sure you’ll see a quick and appropriate response.

And as a serious response to your non-serious question, I think we both know that the answer is actually “yes.” What any individual does in spontaneous response is outside the rubrics. And I’m equally sure that if anyone was to try to introduce such a gesture as a “practice” it would be dealt with.

Quite frankly, you do neither yourself nor your cause any service in trying to create ridiculous scenarios for which there is ample recourse and avenue for correction, and trying to compare them to something that has been a longstanding practice which the Church has specifically chosen not to address.

I continue to pray we can stop sniping at each other over these petty matters and be charitable in allowing some latitude for expressing our devotion.

Peace,

Now, John. You should know as well as I that Rome has not yet and probably never will issue a directive prohibiting barbeqing in the choir loft. :tsktsk: If burnt ends raise some people’s minds to God, why can’t you allow latitude for this devotion?

So, if I stick my finger up your nose at every Mass, how long before it becomes a “longstanding practice” that is beyond the pale to ridicule? 1 year? 5? 10?

By the way, I don’t care what you do with your hands. Just keep them to yourself. Don’t try to inflict your horizontal view of the Mass on me. I prefer to keep my mind vertically inclined, as the Church instructs us.

 

[ncjohn]

Dr. Bombay:

Now, John. You should know as well as I that Rome has not yet and probably never will issue a directive prohibiting barbeqing in the choir loft. :tsktsk: If burnt ends raise some people’s minds to God, why can’t you allow latitude for this devotion?

So, if I stick my finger up your nose at every Mass, how long before it becomes a “longstanding practice” that is beyond the pale to ridicule? 1 year? 5? 10?

By the way, I don’t care what you do with your hands. Just keep them to yourself. Don’t try to inflict your horizontal view of the Mass on me. I prefer to keep my mind vertically inclined, as the Church instructs us.

As I said, if you want to raise ridiculous scenarios and undermine your crediblity, that is not a concern of mine.

And I promise I won’t reach out for your hand, nor do I for anyone else’s. I have always recommended that we each act charitably in not trying to force our preferences on anyone else. Further I have recommended that if someone does “cross the line” that one request the pastor to reinforce that charitable position so that no one is made to feel uncomfortable. I won’t even offer you the “horizontal” sign of peace (also instructed by the Church) if you don’t desire it, although I have to confess I will pray if for you anyway.

Peace,

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

and trying to compare them to something that has been a longstanding practice which the Church has specifically chosen not to address.

WHERE?!?
Where has this been a long standing practice?

I took an independent survey of a group of Catholics all over the country at another website and asked who does this and how long has it been going on.

Most people said within the last 10 years. Many said they never saw it in their parishes. Look at the poll here, most people said within the last few years.

I NEVER saw this before I moved to Detroit eight years ago. My sisters in Berea, OH and Eastlake, OH still do not do it. Perhaps in some parishes it’s been done for years but not the ones I’ve been in or visited in the Cleveland area.

This is an innovation, plain and simple.
It is not historically Catholic in any way.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

ncjohn:

As I said, if you want to raise ridiculous scenarios and undermine your crediblity, that is not a concern of mine.

And I promise I won’t reach out for your hand, nor do I for anyone else’s. I have always recommended that we each act charitably in not trying to force our preferences on anyone else. Further I have recommended that if someone does “cross the line” that one request the pastor to reinforce that charitable position so that no one is made to feel uncomfortable. I won’t even offer you the “horizontal” sign of peace (also instructed by the Church) if you don’t desire it, although I have to confess I will pray if for you anyway.

Peace,

It’s no more ridiculous than holding hands with complete strangers. And I’ve never had a problem with the Sign of Peace, per se. Mainly because it’s a specific part of the Mass with very specific instructions that we are to offer one another a sign “according to local custom.” I can do without it, but it is a modern innovation that will eventually be suppressed. I can tolerate it in the meantime.

Hand holding during the Our Father, however…

http://www.allfootballbettinglines.com/images/NFL_sgnal/illegaluseofhands.gifIllegal use of hands as far as I’m concerned.

 

[ncjohn]

Dr. Bombay:

Hand holding during the Our Father, however…

http://www.allfootballbettinglines.com/images/NFL_sgnal/illegaluseofhands.gifIllegal use of hands as far as I’m concerned.

And that is where the crux of the matter lies. (Very clever graphic and representation by the way. )

You can throw out all your red herring examples about where those horrible “liberals” will go next if this is allowed to stand. But the fact of the matter is that there are very viable avenues established all the way up the chain of command to deal with legitmate abuses. We don’t meet in secret covens in abandoned barns and with the number of “liturgy police” out there, there is no question that any true abuse (and lots of things that aren’t) will be reported post haste. Of course it’s always possible that the Church won’t rule on some of them the way you might like, and then you would have to walk that fine line again between saying you fully support the Church and criticizing the decisions you don’t like. It’s a difficult position to be in when one is claiming to be “fully assenting” to all Church teachings.

And then of course there’s the argument that
netmil(name removed by moderator):

I took an independent survey of a group of Catholics all over the country at another website and asked who does this and how long has it been going on.

Most people said within the last 10 years. Many said they never saw it in their parishes. Look at the poll here, most people said within the last few years.

Polls are nice to indicate what people think or are aware of, but they don’t change objective history. By the very documents you’ve introduced we know it goes back *at least * to 1975.

Regardless, I don’t think using polls to determine something like this is the way to go. If we do, then we’ll have to look at the surveys that show large majorities of Catholics not believing in the Real Presence or the Church’s teaching on contraception and decide whether they are valid in light of those polls. We all recognize that the Church is not a democracy and we don’t get to vote on these things.

Finally, in the end, it’s not whether it is
Dr. Bombay:

Illegal use of hands as far as I’m concerned

since we both know that neither you nor I get to make these decisions. It has nothing to do with whether you like it or I like it. It has to do with whether we can charitably give each other some space, with judging each others “orthodoxy” or piety, to worship God in ways we find meaningful without violating the rules.

The objective fact is that at this time the Church has not taken any position that makes it illicit, regardless of whether you think She should. At this time, it is up to your Bishop and it objectively exists, so we need to figure out how to peacefully coexist and not need to throw each other overboard. If the Church in Her wisdom decides to condemn this at some point, I might be disappointed, but I will comply without whining.

All that being said–with way too many words yet again --this topic has really been beaten to death so I will move on with life until it raises its ugly head on yet another thread.

Lord, make me a channel of your peace!

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

A
And then of course there’s the argument that
Polls are nice to indicate what people think or are aware of, but they don’t change objective history. By the very documents you’ve introduced we know it goes back *at least * to 1975.

I’ve been through all the documents that I have posted. I do not see the date 1975 in any of them.
Maybe I lost the Bookmark in the last computer crash. With 21 of them linked together in our house, they happen often.
Could you please reference the link that I posted?

 

[DiZent]

It’s no more ridiculous than holding hands with complete strangers. And I’ve never had a problem with the Sign of Peace, per se. Mainly because it’s a specific part of the Mass with very specific instructions that we are to offer one another a sign “according to local custom.” I can do without it, but it is a modern innovation that will eventually be suppressed. I can tolerate it in the meantime.

Cooties, eh.

My mom & I visited several neighboring parishes over the summer. At one, we did not hold hands during the Our Father - which we said in Latin. I don’t remember whether we held our hands up in the orans position or not. It was different than what I am used to, and felt slightly odd, but was most definitely the Mass, and had it’s own beauty. Really, I have no problem either way, If the person next to me keeps their hands folded, I would not grope for their hand.

 

[Kielbasi]

Dr. Bombay:

It’s no more ridiculous than holding hands with complete strangers.of hands as far as I’m concerned.

But really, the people in the neighborhood parish aren’t complete strangers, but just the other Catholic folk from the neighborhood. Even if you might not know all of them by name, you can recognize them from seeing them in the store, or on the street, or the barber who cuts your hair.

The Church seems to be moving away from the geographic paradigm of church attendance which has worked successfully for centuries, but its still there to a large degree, in spite of the efforts of thousands to church shop all over town.

 

[kaymart]

If you don’t want to “Hold Hands” put them in a Praying postion and leave it at that. Being at Mass is no time to get rude. If someone goes to hold yours, kindly smile and put you hands together, they’ll get the hint without being rude about it. I personally do this myself and never got a second look either way.

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I’ve been through all the documents that I have posted. I do not see the date 1975 in any of them.
Maybe I lost the Bookmark in the last computer crash. With 21 of them linked together in our house, they happen often.
Could you please reference the link that I posted?

I’ll adress this only because of your specific request and to correct a minor misstatement of who posted it here.

I apologize…it wasn’t you that posted it in this thread–it was Madia–but it’s the one you’ve referenced on several occasions, Notitiae 11(1975) 226.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

The opposite is true. With Protestants, it’s “me, God, and my bible”, they do socialize with one another, but they don’t have the Church Millitant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant in their theologies. I don’t think God will be too happy with people who make holy hours all the time, say countless rosaries, go to daily Mass and confession, learn Church documents- including the Bible, and ignore the person sitting next to them in the pews- who may be hurting, whose faith may be struggling, who goes to Mass week after week, and no one goes up to them and introduces themselves or notices when they’re gone.

That is exactly why I like Catholicism-because people aren’t constantly bothering me or “welcoming” me etc.I like that no one necessarily notices when I come or go-because I don’t go to Mass for atention.

When I decided to shake myself out of complacency, go back to Confession, go to daily Mass more often etc. that would be the last thing I would have needed, might have even scared me off. I needed God and I time, silence and solitude. When wrestling with your own personal sins, you don’t need in your face “community”. I didn’t need someone saying something like, “Hey, my name’s Bob, I’ve noticed you coming around. Ya wanna go to Confession with me?”

 

[Little_Mary]

kaymart:

If you don’t want to “Hold Hands” put them in a Praying postion and leave it at that. Being at Mass is no time to get rude. If someone goes to hold yours, kindly smile and put you hands together, they’ll get the hint without being rude about it. I personally do this myself and never got a second look either way.

I try to do this too - every once in a while I get next to someone who just grabs my hand - even if I have them clasped. While I don’t like the whole " hand holding" thing, I have to chuckle when this happens to me. I take it to mean that the person who did it is making sure I don’t feel left out. At any rate, I prefer NOT to hold hands.

I suppose each parish could post the proper posture for the Our Father in the bulletin, or maybe announce it, but, as Jimmy Aiken once said on a radio show not too long ago, "…nobody wants to be the ogre and say ‘don’t hold hands’ "

I’d hope that wouldn’t be an issue - I’d hope that everyone would be interested to know what the church teaches on this posture and would have a desire to follow it… …rather than say “Oh that’s ridiculous, I’m going to continue my hand holding.”

 

[Dr.Bombay]

DiZent:

Cooties, eh.

My mom & I visited several neighboring parishes over the summer. At one, we did not hold hands during the Our Father - which we said in Latin. I don’t remember whether we held our hands up in the orans position or not. It was different than what I am used to, and felt slightly odd, but was most definitely the Mass, and had it’s own beauty. Really, I have no problem either way, If the person next to me keeps their hands folded, I would not grope for their hand.

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