No need to sneer. Just do what I do, close your eyes and fold your hands.Well, I didn’t hold hands today for the first time.
The man next looked at me, wanting to hold my hand, but I held my ground and sneered at him.
It was a great feeling, very powerful like I was in control.
fold 1 img.tfd.com/hm/pron.gif (fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifld)v. fold·ed, fold·ing, foldsCan anyone post a picture of what is meant by folding hands. I just don’t get it.
I don’t know this bishop but I already like him.:clapping:Here in the diocese of Burlington, Vermont, in August our bishop gave specific instructions that during the Our Father there was to be no hand holding and no orans postures, that the sign of peace did not have to include a handshake but could consist in a sober nod and/or a simple greeting of peace, and that we were to kneel after the Lamb of God until after the reception of the Eucharist. As well, he mentioned SILENCE before and after Mass, as well as at prescribed points in the liturgy, proper attire, and above all proper preparation for the PRIVILEGE of receiving the Eucharist, and the need to be in a state of grace as a baptized Catholic.
Comments?
The closest you come to what my priest refers to as the proper position for “folded hands” is the first example. However there is a small difference. It’s palms and fingers touching (4 on 4) with your right thumb folded over your left thumb to form an x. I think my parish is pretty blessed to have a priest that teaches the proper way to do these things.Can anyone post a picture of what is meant by folding hands. I just don’t get it.
The positions I can figure out are:
Palms and fingers touching (5 on 5), prayer position.
Hands together with fingers intertwined would be called clasped hands.
Hands together (as if applauding) is just one hand holding the other.
How on earth can hands be folded?
Thanks. No need for a picture. I just tried it.The closest you come to what my priest refers to as the proper position for “folded hands” is the first example. However there is a small difference. It’s palms and fingers touching (4 on 4) with your right thumb folded over your left thumb to form an x. I think my parish is pretty blessed to have a priest that teaches the proper way to do these things.
Sorry I don’t have a picture!
Ok then, please tell us what the “correct” posture is for the hands and post the appropriate GIRM section that informs us of that.Since Instrument Laboris states-- that the proper structure and elements for the celebration of the Eucharist are in the GIRM—where in the GIRM does it state that we hold hands. This also goes for any other action that is not proper to the GIRM.
Ok then, please tell us what the “correct” posture is for the hands and post the appropriate GIRM section that informs us of that.
Yes I am aware of traditions, even without the sarcasm. Are you capable of responding to a question without it? Or is it just reserved for me? You might be surprised to learn that I actually can even read and write and speak in full sentences!
With that----we fall back on tradition-----hands clasped together in prayer. You do know ----that the Church has traditions.
I would ask again: Where in the GIRM does it state that hands clasped is the position. Or that we are to fall back on a tradition, and if so, which one?Since Instrument Laboris states-- that the proper structure and elements for the celebration of the Eucharist are in the GIRM—where in the GIRM does it state that we hold hands.
I feel the same way. It strikes me as a Protestant/Charismatic thing.I think holding hands during the our father is creepy it reminds me of creepy congregations i was invited too that were not Catholic.
I think the folding of my hands and bowing my head is a little more appropiate for myself.
That is not a personal attack on anyone just my prefrence.
No, he has not said not to, nor has any priest in this diocese interpreted what he said to mean that that I am aware of, and I have been to a fair number of them.John, I don’t know what diocese you live in in NC, but the in the Diocese of Charlotte the Bishop has said not to hold hands as it is not found in the order of the Mass.
Yes I am aware of traditions, even without the sarcasm. Are you capable of responding to a question without it? Or is it just reserved for me? You might be surprised to learn that I actually can even read and write and speak in full sentences!
But you didn’t answer the question. Since your statement was
I would ask again: Where in the GIRM does it state that hands clasped is the position. Or that we are to fall back on a tradition, and if so, which one?
The problem with your statement, even if there was an instruction somewhere to fall back on tradition, is that there is NO tradition in regards to what to do with one’s hands during the Our Father. The Our Father was not recited by the people until the Pauline Mass. So when it was said previously, people just did whatever they had been doiing during the rest of the mass, which was highly unlikely to be clasping their hands since most people were holding their missals to read along in the translation or saying rosaries. In fact, I believe you can go back as far as you want and will NEVER find a “prescribed position” for the hands for prayer during the Mass beyond making the sign of the cross or beating the breast.
I have absolutely nothing against folding hands or clasping hands. It is the way I learned in Catholic school back in the 50’s and 60’s. But I also know that nearly no adults outside the nuns at school actually used folded hands at ANY time during Mass, and the only time you saw even clasped hands was in the communion procession. So as a “tradition”, it might have been a desirable posture, but it wasn’t the reality in any of the numerous churches I attended in life.
And then there is still that other sticky point that you keep ignoring. The authority to set liturgical positions is granted to the conferences of Bishops, with approval by the Vatican. Our conference of bishops has answered the question very clearly that “there is no prescribed position for the hands during the Our Father.” You may not like that, or you may think that they are wrong or misguided in doing so, or that even the bishops speaking as a body are just a bunch of misguided liberals out to destroy the Church. But they have been given the authority and the Vatican has not superceded them so at least for now that pretty much means that “there is no prescribed position for the hands during the Our Father.”
Peace,
John,No, he has not said not to, nor has any priest in this diocese interpreted what he said to mean that that I am aware of, and I have been to a fair number of them.
He made a simple statement of fact that it is not found in the order of the Mass, which is true. Also true is that folding hands, clasping hands, putting one’s hands on the back of the pew, or any other position you want to name is not found in the order of the Mass.
Peace,
Decree of Promulgation
The celebration of the Holy Eucharist is the “source and summit of the Christian life” (Lumen Gentium,
11). After many years of preparation, the third typical edition of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal was approved in English translation on March 17, 2003. This document provides the
framework of our celebration of the Sacred Mysteries and guides us that we may celebrate the Holy Sacrifice in unity and peace. On March 25, 2004 the Holy See issued a further instruction on the Eucharist entitled, Redemptionis Sacramentum (the Sacrament of Redemption) to provide greater clarity to certain matters regarding the Most Holy Eucharist and “to preserve this mystery of faith with reverence, care, devotion and love.”
It is with this in mind that I have the joy of promulgating the following liturgical norms for the Diocese of Charlotte. They are outlined here for the benefit of all the Christian faithful of our Diocese and are to be considered normative for the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy on Holy Thursday, March 24, 2005, the beginning of the Triduum of Easter.
Given at the Chancery of the Diocese of Charlotte, March 3, 2005.
������The Most Reverend Peter J. Jugis, J.C.D.
Bishop of Charlotte
Liturgical Norms
Of the Diocese of Charlotte
General Norms…
Communion
53. Holding hands during the Our Father is not found in the Order of the Mass.
54. At the Rite of Peace following the Our Father, “it is suitable that each person offer the sign
of peace only to those nearby and in a dignified manner.”54
55. The priest should ordinarily not leave the sanctuary during the sign of peace (except on special occasions, e.g. funerals and then only to greet the family of the deceased).55 The gift of peace should not seem to flow from the ordained to the laity…
You really have to reach to come to a conclusion that holding hands is “adding” to the Mass. If it is, then so is holding my grandchild or putting my hands on the back of the pew, or anything else in the world, INCLUDING clasping your hands or folding your hands since they are not specified or “authorized” either.The sticky pt. that you keep ignoring—is that no bishop or conference of bishops has the authority to add, omit or do anything without prior recognitio from Rome. Try as I might–I have not found any documentation from Rome to authorize this posture.
You’d have to ask him I guess. The statement stands for itself though; it doesn’t ask for anything or for any interpretation.John,
Why do you think he stated and bolded that, and made no mention of the “prayer hands” position?
You really have to reach to come to a conclusion that holding hands is “adding” to the Mass. If it is, then so is holding my grandchild or putting my hands on the back of the pew, or anything else in the world, INCLUDING clasping your hands or folding your hands since they are not specified or “authorized” either.
No matter how many irrelevant documents you quote, and no matter how far you try to stretch interpretations of things, there is absolutely NOTHING from the Vatican that supports your view that it is wrong or illicit. The conference of bishops has the authority and has spoken in clear terms. Despite all the whining over the issue the Vatican has not seen fit over 30-35 years to overrule that or to say “stop” despite dealing with many other actual abuses.
If you want to say you don’t like it, that’s fine, and I fully support your right to not like it. If you want to think it shouldn’t be allowed, that’s fine, and I’ll even probably agree that there are some points working against it. If you want to work for prescribing some single position, I’m fine with that too. But for right now at least, it is not “wrong” and it is not “illicit”. It is not objectively more or less prayerful than any position that you prefer. And in the end that’s all it is–a preference in the way we address our prayers to our awesome God, no different than preferring a TLM or NO Mass or preferring communion on the tongue over communion in the hand.
I will continue to encourage people to not try to push this on anyone or to look down on anyone for not participating; just as I will continue to encourage those who don’t want to participate to not look down on those who do.
Peace,