Holding hands during the Our Father?

[Michael_Welter]

I don’t see why we can’t just keep the traditional positions of prayer and leave all the touchy-feely nonsense for non-Catholics.

You can! And don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. If you don’t like holding hands during the Our Father, then don’t.

 

[netmilsmom]

You can! And don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. If you don’t like holding hands during the Our Father, then don’t.

But again, that puts the pressure on the person to “not” do an innovation that everyone else is doing. This is what the Diocese of St. Louis says…
"
Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged?
BCL Newsletter, October-November 1989
No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity."

 

[netmilsmom]

That Italy received permission is a known fact, as you acknowledged. The rest of it is logic drawn from that fact. I don’t remember where I read it, but it was pretty readily deducible (is that a word??) for me and was the same conclusion I had drawn.

As I said though, there may be other interpretations based on things I haven’t seen since this is relatively recent, so I’m not comfortable enough to get into a debate though I’d love to see any other documentation that addresses it to help clarify my own tenuously-held position.

((Hugs back to you))

Morning John, sorry I missed this.

Understanding that this is an interpertation without citation, the concept stands, Italy had to get permission. The USA was not granted this.

I still haven’t seen a citation stating the special permission itself. It was quoted on one EWTN column and had no citation connected.

Either way, we weren’t given permission. Because they had to ask, we do. Special permission is given when something is NOT allowed, not when something is.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

You can! And don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. If you don’t like holding hands during the Our Father, then don’t.

I know I can, I just mean that the traditional postures for the laity should be reaffirmed as normative and other things should be supressed.

 

[ncjohn]

Morning John, sorry I missed this.

Understanding that this is an interpertation without citation, the concept stands, Italy had to get permission. The USA was not granted this.

I still haven’t seen a citation stating the special permission itself. It was quoted on one EWTN column and had no citation connected.

Either way, we weren’t given permission. Because they had to ask, we do. Special permission is given when something is NOT allowed, not when something is.

Again, as I said, I don’t want to get into a debate on this since it is not the topic of the thread, but there is a definite difference here.

They had to get permission to make it the prescribed position, not to use the position. They would not have been able to get permission to prescribe a position that is a “reserved” position, which is why I, along with the other commentaries I have seen on the topic, have concluded that the orans cannot then be a “reserved” position.

As I said though, there may be more to the story that just hasn’t come to light yet, so I am personally not stating anything as “fact” at this point beyond their having received permission.

Peace,

 

[psteichen]

Thanks for every ones feedback on this. In my opinion those that choose to adopt these “new” postures should have some sort of reason for doing so. And in my reading of the above posts, the only reason I’ve seen can be summed up as “it doesn’t say anywhere that I can’t”. Which seems to be true, but a rather strange reason for changing the Mass.

It seem to me that this is just a fad that has become popular. The problem is it leads to uncomfortable moments as practitioners get touchy-feely when the rest of us are just trying to pray.

Also, I have a hard time believing the results of this pole. When I was at Mass this evening I felt like the only one not participating. Everyone else was either holding hands, raising them up as if they are blessing the priest, or in some clever cases both!

Oh well

 

[Victorious]

It isn’t mentioned in the GIRM, but then again belly dancing in the aisles isn’t mentioned either and we certainly don’t care to have that at Mass. :bigyikes:

I guarantee you, somebody, somwhere, is pushing for just that. :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

I hate handholding during Mass. I hate being forced into intimacy with strangers. However, I will take my friends’ hands for friendship’s sake.

 

[ncjohn]

In my opinion those that choose to adopt these “new” postures should have some sort of reason for doing so. And in my reading of the above posts, the only reason I’ve seen can be summed up as “it doesn’t say anywhere that I can’t”.

While I can’t speak for anyone else here, I can speak for myself and the people I know who prefer to hold hands. The only reason I hadn’t brought it up earlier is that the demand had been for documentation on why it was acceptable to do so, so I stuck to documentation rather than personal reasons.

The people with whom I associate and who were mostly responsible for changing my position on this, since I used to intentionally place myself in places where I would not be asked to participate, see the hand holding as a visible sign of the community we share as the Body of Christ as we pray this unique prayer of praise and petition to Our Father.

There are many who say we do not need this sign, and I can totally agree that we don’t “need” it, just as we don’t “need” the many other signs and rituals that we have in the celebration of our faith. We don’t “need” the sign of the cross, or genuflecting, or the beating of the breast, or incense, or bells, or the washing of the hands, or the blessing of throats, or the kissing of the cross, etc, etc. But the fact is that signs, symbols, and rituals resonate with us. And different ones resonate more with some people than others. Not all us resonate with the same symbols and signs; thus many of us perform some of them mechanically or just skip them altogether. That doesn’t mean though that we should abandon them just because everybody doesn’t respond the same.

The fact is that through the centuries, wise liturgists have recognized that different people respond to different signs and symbols and have thus mixed in many different types so that the entire congregation will be engaged in at least some of them and drawn into the liturgy.

I understand that, and understand equally why many don’t resonate with holding hands. It truly isn’t a matter of “false chumminess” or being “touchy feely”, though I can understand why some people don’t want to participate simply because they do not identify with that level of physical contact–and that is perfectly fine!

It truly does sadden me that so many are so caught up with judging other’s attempts to come to God, and so unwilling or unable to understand that different people approach God in differenet ways, just as we approach our earthly brothers and sisters in different ways.

Some of us will sit at our Thanksgiving dinners with our families in very formal settings, and without any hugging with family members on arrival or departure. Others of us will express our joy and thanksgiving in very physical ways, and with what might seem to some to be a “free for all” at the dinner table. And sometimes you’ll have a mixture of both since some family members might be more prone to expressing their affection physically or verbally than others. Neither is right or wrong or inappropriate, as long as we don’t make them feel uncomfortable by trying to push them into something they prefer to avoid.

It really shouldn’t be much different as we come to our Abba’s table. We may express our joy and love for Him differently, but that really should be a cause for joy that we are there rather than a time to be condemning because someone responds differently.

Is that a good enough reason? Each will have to decide for themselves, but charity calls me to not judge anyone’s motivation or devotion but rather to rejoice that they are there to worship and build up the Body of Christ.

Peace,

 

[Jaypeeto4]

I won’t hold hands with anybody during the Our Father, mainly
because I have seen people at church sneeze into their
cupped hands.

Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)

 

[runandsew]

Yes I hold hands, because in my Parish we hold hands, so therefore I hold hands.
I think that unity in your Parish is very important. If people have an issue with holding hands then they should take it up with their priest, but until then I believe that one should not stand out from the rest on the people. What is the bigger wrong, holding hands during the Our Father, or not being unified with your Parish? Now this would be different, if it is something that would be against the Churches teachings, or invalidate the Mass, but I think that one not holding hands when everyone else does is a sign of individualism , and is not in the spirit of communion. I know that we are not suppose to do this, but again I say if you have an issue with it take it up with your Priest, and until then do what everyone else is doing so you do not stand out, the Mass is not suppose to focus on you and your actions.

 

[Victorious]

Yes I hold hands, because in my Parish we hold hands, so therefore I hold hands.
I think that unity in your Parish is very important. If people have an issue with holding hands then they should take it up with their priest, but until then I believe that one should not stand out from the rest on the people. What is the bigger wrong, holding hands during the Our Father, or not being unified with your Parish?

You mean it’s not enough for me to be unified with my fellow parishioners by virtue of the Holy Eucharist? Jesus doesn’t quite get the job done, so that I have to have strangers force false intimacy on me?

If anybody is too busy paying attention to my failure to hold hands, then I have to question whether the problem lies with me.

 

[runandsew]

What I am trying to say is that if someone offers you their hand to hold, you should not refuse it.
Whether it is a true or false intimacy, only they and God knows what is in their heart.

 

[Victorious]

What I am trying to say is that if someone offers you their hand to hold, you should not refuse it.
Whether it is a true or false intimacy, only they and God knows what is in their heart.

If the person is a stranger, then it is by definition a false intimacy. What is in their heart is not the point.

 

[Michael_Welter]

If the person is a stranger, then it is by definition a false intimacy. What is in their heart is not the point.

Just curious. . . why do you refer to members of your parish community as “strangers”? Aren’t we all brothers and sisters in Christ? Aren’t we all sharing the same meal with our Father? Just because I don’t know someone’s name, or anything else about them, doesn’t make them a stranger.

 

[marytk]

we don’t hold hands in our Parish. When I visit other parishes I try not to hold hands but don’t make an issue out of it. When our Priest was explaining why we don’t ,he gave the example of when a little old lady grabs your hand you don’t snatch it a way with a look of horror. This was a call to be loving. At my nephew’s First Communion. his only grandparent grabbed my hand. I thought of what was said and kept it and my niece on the other side. A couple weeks later the Grandpa died.

Now often when I am at another parish I sit with the Deaf Comunity so we sign the Our Father It is kind of hard to sign when holding hands

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Just curious. . . why do you refer to members of your parish community as “strangers”? Aren’t we all brothers and sisters in Christ?

Just because we are all brothers in Christ doesn’t mean we have to get all touchy feely. Nor do we even have to like everyone just because they are a fellow Christian. What we do have to do is what the Golden Rule calls for.

Furthermore, even though we are all in one family and one body as members of the Church we can still be “strangers”. I don’t know half or more of the people in the churches I went to in bigger cities and that is fine with me. But I do know and feel the transcendent connection between the Church Militant as well as the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering, and I still don’t see any need to play Hands Across America.

 

[MrS]

What I am trying to say is that if someone offers you their hand to hold, you should not refuse it.
Whether it is a true or false intimacy, only they and God knows what is in their heart.

What I would say is that if I offer someone NOT to hold their hand, they should not insist on it.

 

[BeeSweet]

I agree it’s a fad, and as such does not belong in the celebration. I was away from the church for 13 years, it popped up while I was away. It’s simply odd, and in my opinion a form of showboating.

Immediately preceeding the text of the Our Father in Chapter 6 of the book of Matthew is the following passage:

"1 "(But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. 2 When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, 4 so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. 5 “When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.”

So the argument that the handholding during the prayer is an outward sign of community doesn’t hold water for me, at least from what the Gospel says about such things. Same is true for raising your hands. ** We are a community in the Eucharist. ** This is what we all want, to share in the Body and Blood of Christ. The fact that some of us want to hold hands, but some of us do not, in itself means that it’s not a communal gesture.

I don’t like holding hands with folks I don’t know, but I certainly don’t want anyone to feel like I don’t want to hold their hand, so either way I loose out. It’s a major distraction.

I also believe sharing the sign of peace should be reserved for special occasions like Christmas and Easter.

 

[Victorious]

Just because we are all brothers in Christ doesn’t mean we have to get all touchy feely. Nor do we even have to like everyone just because they are a fellow Christian. What we do have to do is what the Golden Rule calls for.

Furthermore, even though we are all in one family and one body as members of the Church we can still be “strangers”. I don’t know half or more of the people in the churches I went to in bigger cities and that is fine with me. But I do know and feel the transcendent connection between the Church Militant as well as the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering, and I still don’t see any need to play Hands Across America.

Thank you, Andrei. What you said.

 

[LeahInancsi]

This group is NOT representative of the Catholics in the pews at Catholic churches I was attended. Almost everybody (95+%) holds hands at Mass. No one that I know of has been struck by lightning.