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His_Ruby
Guest
This is what my father-in-law was saying, as I recall. Too people-focused rather than Christ-focused.
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estesbob
Guest
Well since this is the First time this has EVER been discussed on CAF Ill put in my two cents. I dont like holiding hands at the Our Father but think in the large scheme of things it doesnt matter. i am just glad people are at Mass to begin with!
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ncjohn
Guest
There is no prohibition and the only official statement anyone has ever produced on it, the famous 11 Noticiae 1975, is inapplicable to the situation, the link to the opinion from the previous post notwithstanding.
As a matter of personal prayer preference, which is not initiated by some third party–which *would *be prohibited, it is up to the individual. One cannot take the “not approved by the GIRM” approach as there is no posture at all specified by the GIRM and to take a stance against it on that grounds would be to take a stance against any position whatsoever.
The USCCB made clear, in another question on prayer position during the Our Father that “there is no prescribed position”. With a clear opening to specify one if they wanted to, or if there was a basis to, they did not and made clear that there is not one, nor is holding hands prohibited.
In addition, we have Redemptionis Sacramentum, which was brought out specifically to deal with all manner of abuses, and which conspicuously does NOT mention anything about the issue despite the many questions about it that have arisen through the years.
Those who participate do have valid reasons for doing so that have nothing to do with “touchy feely” desires. The statement that it is duplicative of the sign of peace is untrue, as they are totally different prayers–one a communal prayer of petition to Our Father, the other an offering of a desire of peace to our “neighbor”.
Finally the statement that it has no place in tradition doesn’t hold up because the communal prayer of the Our Father was new to the post Vatican II Mass, and the holding hands issue tracks it almost identically, though it was certainly not as widespread in the beginning. As such, it can well be argued that it is at least a valid tradition with regard to that prayer, and according to canon law, seems to meet the requirements of being a tradition based on unrepudiated use over an extended period of time.
All that being said, there are many valid reasons for someone to wish not to participate in it, and nobody should ever feel pressured to. Priests and liturgical directors are not allowed to institute it as a practice, such as “let’s all join hands as we pray the prayer that Jesus gave us.”
There seems to be two things lacking in the issue. First, many are ignorant of what is allowed and required, and thus start pushing their preference on others who do not share that preference. The second thing is a lack of charity towards others–sometimes just based on the first point–which results in people making judgments about other’s piety or motivations rather than recognizing that different people will show their love of God in different ways. Grabbing at people’s hands is just clearly unacceptable, though glaring at someone for offering their hand is just as uncharitable.
Archbishop Chaput of Denver put out a beautiful statement on the whole thing, making clear that we are all called to charity in this, which can be found here. archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_18_02_our_father_liturgy.htm
Peace,
As a matter of personal prayer preference, which is not initiated by some third party–which *would *be prohibited, it is up to the individual. One cannot take the “not approved by the GIRM” approach as there is no posture at all specified by the GIRM and to take a stance against it on that grounds would be to take a stance against any position whatsoever.
The USCCB made clear, in another question on prayer position during the Our Father that “there is no prescribed position”. With a clear opening to specify one if they wanted to, or if there was a basis to, they did not and made clear that there is not one, nor is holding hands prohibited.
In addition, we have Redemptionis Sacramentum, which was brought out specifically to deal with all manner of abuses, and which conspicuously does NOT mention anything about the issue despite the many questions about it that have arisen through the years.
Those who participate do have valid reasons for doing so that have nothing to do with “touchy feely” desires. The statement that it is duplicative of the sign of peace is untrue, as they are totally different prayers–one a communal prayer of petition to Our Father, the other an offering of a desire of peace to our “neighbor”.
Finally the statement that it has no place in tradition doesn’t hold up because the communal prayer of the Our Father was new to the post Vatican II Mass, and the holding hands issue tracks it almost identically, though it was certainly not as widespread in the beginning. As such, it can well be argued that it is at least a valid tradition with regard to that prayer, and according to canon law, seems to meet the requirements of being a tradition based on unrepudiated use over an extended period of time.
All that being said, there are many valid reasons for someone to wish not to participate in it, and nobody should ever feel pressured to. Priests and liturgical directors are not allowed to institute it as a practice, such as “let’s all join hands as we pray the prayer that Jesus gave us.”
There seems to be two things lacking in the issue. First, many are ignorant of what is allowed and required, and thus start pushing their preference on others who do not share that preference. The second thing is a lack of charity towards others–sometimes just based on the first point–which results in people making judgments about other’s piety or motivations rather than recognizing that different people will show their love of God in different ways. Grabbing at people’s hands is just clearly unacceptable, though glaring at someone for offering their hand is just as uncharitable.
Archbishop Chaput of Denver put out a beautiful statement on the whole thing, making clear that we are all called to charity in this, which can be found here. archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_18_02_our_father_liturgy.htm
Peace,
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Walking_Home
Guest
The holding hands during the Our Father is a result of going horizontal—the emphasis on the “community”.
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LouisianaDavid
Guest
Absolutely NOT. Nowhere in the rubrics does it say to hold hands. The rubrics tell us what to do not what not to do.
It is the misguided / well-intentioned movement that started this.
Me and my family bow our heads until the Lord’s Prayer is complete and the commotion is over.
It is the misguided / well-intentioned movement that started this.
Me and my family bow our heads until the Lord’s Prayer is complete and the commotion is over.
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LouisianaDavid
Guest
Then, lets hold hands for the Profession of Faith or the whole Mass for that matter.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
The holding hands during the Our Father is a result of going horizontal—the emphasis on the “community”.
Then, lets hold hands for the Profession of Faith or the whole Mass for that matter.
Give some people time—and a priest and/or bishop who lets people do what they want-----they will get there.
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LouisianaDavid
Guest
Let’s hope not
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lg3
Guest
Actually the Church in general all around the world arent supposed to, not sure why tho, they most probably told us in Liturgy but, as a usual Sem student, i forgot
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DallasCatholic
Guest
Actually I think there are two issues here. One is the holding of hands during the Lord’s prayer…and you are absolutely correct. It is a personal preference, the only thing that is prohibited is the Priest/Deacon from instituting the practice. I thnk the second issue referred to people holding/raising their hands during the Our Father. Personally I have a problem with this because,from what I have seen, people are imitating the Priest’s posture. I am speaking of the Orans posture which is specifically a Priestly posture and should not be used by the laity. So while holding hands, if not instituted from the Altar is allowable using the Orans posture is not.
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Biblioassistant
Guest
Where I go to church, there are some seats by a pillar that are very small with room enough only for one or two people. I always try and get one. That way I don’t have to hold hands. It’s not that I am unfriendly or don’t like people, but I hate to hold hands and then have my arm jerked up. I just hate it with a pure and white hot hate, and if (God forbid) we ever got a priest who insisted on hand holding, I would go to a different parish and hang the cost of gas.
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HailMary
Guest
The real problem with holding hands is that people inserted something into the Divine Liturgy which is not supposed to happen. Further, when you raise your hands in the air, like what usually happens near the end of the Lords Prayer…this is a priestly prayer position, similar to the Levitical priesthood was like, and this may diminish role of the priesthood, from the peoples perspective.
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mdgspencer
Guest
This actually isn’t part of the mass, since there is no official direction to hold hands then. It is just something some people do during the mass. So obviously there is no requirement to hold hands then. I don’t really see harm in it when people do hold hands, though in fact it can be troubling to those who find it a bit offensive. In fact a few of the bishops during a recent U.S. bishop’s conference objected that there are people who stay away from mass because of it. But I think this problem would be taken care of if it was well known that there is no compulsion in the matteer.
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otjm
Guest
On the other hand, in at least part of Italy, the orans position is specifically allowed. So the issue of priestly prayer position is not an absolute interdiction of either the orans position or raising hands while holding your neighbor’s.
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whatevergirl
Guest
I think holding hands during the Our Father is neat…we don’t do it, but I have gone to mass with a coworker during Lent, and we held hands…it was kinda cool.
I have also seen a few nuns during mass at our parish…hold their hands open. Of all the things my son refuses to do at mass…he does this…holds his hands open during the Our Father. I think that he learned this during his religious education classes for Confirmation.
I have also seen a few nuns during mass at our parish…hold their hands open. Of all the things my son refuses to do at mass…he does this…holds his hands open during the Our Father. I think that he learned this during his religious education classes for Confirmation.
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LouisianaDavid
Guest
Is it also NEAT if I hold my hands open during the whole Mass? That should be even NEATER, huh?
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elliotfc
Guest
I’ll take this a bit off topic…
First, I don’t mind the holding hands if it’s done naturally and immediately. I don’t like it when the Our Father starts, and people are in the process of finding hands to hold, walking across and aisle to join hands with someone, basically making a fuss. I think a priest ought to wait for everyone to get in hand holding formation before starting the Our Father. Kind of like how the Eucharistic Prayer ought not being until the kneelers stop crashing on the floor.
And now off topic…the Agnus Dei situation is to me excruciating. The Sign of Peace is to be extremely localized and contained, but it never is, and the Agnus Dei, at my church, is encouraged to begin while people are still doing the Sign of Peace with everyone down their pew, in front and behind. Ugh.
First, I don’t mind the holding hands if it’s done naturally and immediately. I don’t like it when the Our Father starts, and people are in the process of finding hands to hold, walking across and aisle to join hands with someone, basically making a fuss. I think a priest ought to wait for everyone to get in hand holding formation before starting the Our Father. Kind of like how the Eucharistic Prayer ought not being until the kneelers stop crashing on the floor.
And now off topic…the Agnus Dei situation is to me excruciating. The Sign of Peace is to be extremely localized and contained, but it never is, and the Agnus Dei, at my church, is encouraged to begin while people are still doing the Sign of Peace with everyone down their pew, in front and behind. Ugh.
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DallasCatholic
Guest
Can you give some documentation for this claim? AFAIK the Orans posture is specifically forbidden to the laity.
adoremus.org/1103OransPosture.html
ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm
I have heard this before, that it is allowed in Italy and Spain but have never actually seen anyone reference the documents that show this to be true.
thanks.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Yes ----it has come up before—but there has been no documentation (recognitio from Rome) provided to back that up.
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HailMary
Guest
Just an interesting fact in the Chaldean Church when we have the sign of peace. The priest takes the peace from heaven through the altar, gives it to the decon, then the decon says something to the people and then tranfers the peace to the altar servers which in turn go down the pews to the first persons on each side and then it get transmitted down till it meets in the middle. The way you make the sign of peace is similar to putting your hands in a prayer position then you stagger hands with the next person and continue down.
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