Holding Hands During the Our Father

[PatienceAndLove]

At the parish we went to last night the priest told ever one to join hands and sing the Our Father which was fine until we got to

"For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.” I have no idea what was said next but there were at least 10 or so additional words added. I have never heard additional words added to the Our Father.


Mary

Do you mean this:

Priest: Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Or was it something else?

 

[pnewton]

As to the “anything not in the rubrics is unlawful”, we would then have to have our hands removed since there is NOTHING in the rubrics as to what to do with them during the Our Father. There are many, many things that are not in the rubrics and the overwhelming majority of them are not unlawful,

I have wondered the same thing. Common sense tells us there must be some limit to the rule that anything not in the rubrics is unlawful. There are simply too many details than can be addressed by them.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I guess we could ask the question, was Mass made for man, or man for the Mass?

Didn’t Christ give man the Mass as a gift, to be used by man as a means of worship? If so, why should the human elements of the Mass be eliminated, such as holding hands during the Lords Prayer?

Holding hands with my brothers and sisters, as we pray to the Father, seems so right, I can’t understand the arguments that it is wrong.

Jim

 

[DJgang]

Holding hands with my brothers and sisters, as we pray to the Father, seems so right, I can’t understand the arguments that it is wrong.

Jim

Jim, there are some people in the world that do not want to hold someone’s hand, especially a stranger. The person that I sit by every Sunday at Mass, is a stranger. Yes, we are in a community…however…

Out of respect for people who just flat out feel weird (raising my hand, that’s me) holding someone’s hand, I’m sorry.

I guess that it goes deeper … I don’t know.

I guess what I think is…it should NOT be forced or even announced let’s hold hands…

I was part of a church of about 20 people, at the end of the service we would all stand in a circle, hold hands and pray. I didn’t like it. I actually had to force myself to act like I enjoyed it.

I respect you saying that it feels right to you. But please, don’t give out your hand to a stranger. That person may very well not want to hold hands, and very well may suffer from some anxiety from it and that’s not good.

Just giving you more food for thought. God bless.

 

[MrS]

It seems that the different viewpoints are often centered in either
1] it’s about us, me, community or
2] it’s about vertical liturgy, God, personal prayer

For those of you with the time, I can only recommend the following podcast from a Michigan priest (who many hope will someday be a bishop).

His talk on the Our Father is important in that it reveals more of what it is that we (individually !!) are saying in that prayer. It is NOT a time to reflect on the concerns or desires of the person next to us in the pew.

frjohnriccardo.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=114526

Also, for what it is worth… the Orans position is reserved to the priest. I would think that would include at any time in the Mass, and in any “variation”.

As the canon lawyer, Dr Ed Peters, observed:

• if the Church intended the Our Father be changed from being a prayer said by the priest for the people (Orans is used at these times)
  to become a prayer the priest was saying with the people (Orans is not used during these times),
  then perhaps the Church should have gone further and intructed priests to not use the Orans during the Our Father.

But he does… and we should not.

frjohnriccardo.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=114526

Yep, I pasted it twice, because it is that good. Please enjoy.

.

 

[AlexV]

All too often, the pattern becomes:

1. Some people start doing something novel, like holding hands during the Pater noster;
2. The same people expect others to do so, and expect explanations/detailed reasoning as to why others would object to such an “innocuous” and “harmless” and “natural, human” practice.

In other words, they shift the burden to someone else to explain why they choose not to hold hands.

Huh? Come again?

If you want to hold hands with your family/friends, go for it. But don’t walk down the pew or reach out to a total stranger. You’re now requiring them to make a choice they shouldn’t be confronted with during the liturgy. The burden is now on them to accept or reject your invitation.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

DJgang

I guess what I think is…it should NOT be forced or even announced let’s hold hands…

I agree, no one should be forced to hold hands. Everyone should respect this, and I think for the most part, people do. There are the exceptions, just as there are the exceptions who get upset over other people holding hands.

But please, don’t give out your hand to a stranger. That person may very well not want to hold hands, and very well may suffer from some anxiety from it and that’s not good.

Don’t hold my hand out to a stranger, while at Mass, are you serious? Perhaps this stranger is lonely, or a new person in the parish, and wants to meet people. Why do we have to celebrate Mass as strangers, why not as friends?

You seem to have anxiety about people. Thats an issue you need to deal with. But please don’t tell me I must be unfriendly to people, because it makes you feel uncomfortable.

Jesus asked that we should love one another, as he has loved us.
I don’t know how this is possible, sitting in the church pew disassociating yourself with everyone around you.

Jim

 

[AlexV]

And maybe that person has a serious communicable disease, or a psychogical phobia about contact with others, or is a recovering rape victim who can’t stand to be touched and whom you’ve unwittingly just condemned to hours of anxiety and recovery.

It is possible to be welcoming and friendly without expecting people to hold hands.

And YES, when you extend your hand, you are putting a burden on the other to accept it. Your own language reveals your prejudice: the clear implication is that those who don’t agree to hold hands aren’t being faithful to Jesus’ call, or are sonehow disassociated from those around them.

Give me a break.

What is this obsession with PROVING community? Community just happens. It can’t be forced. And it need not be proven by how many people are happily entwined at the hands.

 

[pnewton]

It seems that the different viewpoints are often centered in either
1] it’s about us, me, community or
2] it’s about vertical liturgy, God, personal prayer

For those of you with the time, I can only recommend the following podcast from a Michigan priest (who many hope will someday be a bishop).
.

Or it is both. One can not escape the fact that it is a plural, not singular prayer. One can err either way. Even the Eucharistic prayers are the prayers of the Chuch, not the individual. That is why individual priests are forbidden to deviate from it.

 

[lukewarm]

I avoid a certain commuter Parish because they do practice the sign of peace. I can’t stand the gladhanding, the day some strange sweaty man tries to put his meat hook in mine during the Our Father is the day I walk, no run right out of the Church and find another one…

 

[Walking_Home]

And maybe that person has a serious communicable disease, or a psychogical phobia about contact with others, or is a recovering rape victim who can’t stand to be touched and whom you’ve unwittingly just condemned to hours of anxiety and recovery.

It is possible to be welcoming and friendly without expecting people to hold hands.

And YES, when you extend your hand, you are putting a burden on the other to accept it. Your own language reveals your prejudice: the clear implication is that those who don’t agree to hold hands aren’t being faithful to Jesus’ call, or are sonehow disassociated from those around them.

Give me a break.

What is this obsession with PROVING community? Community just happens. It can’t be forced. And it need not be proven by how many people are happily entwined at the hands.

---

Bingo — By the very act of extending the hand — a person is imposing him/her self on another.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

AlexV

And maybe that person has a serious communicable disease, or a psychogical phobia about contact with others, or is a recovering rape victim who can’t stand to be touched and whom you’ve unwittingly just condemned to hours of anxiety and recovery.

Hey, here’s an idea, maybe they should be forced to live on the outskirts of town, until they can present themselves before the priest to show they are clean.

This argument is stupid. If the person has a communicable disease, why are they subjecting other people to it, by being in a public gathering? And are we as a society to shun each other, because of the mental disorders of some?

It is possible to be welcoming and friendly without expecting people to hold hands.

Sure, but is is being friendly or rude, when the congregation including yourself, holds hand during the Our Father, but you refuse to extend your hand to someone, because they may be a psychopath?

And YES, when you extend your hand, you are putting a burden on the other to accept it.

You find it burdensome when people extend their kindness?

Your own language reveals your prejudice: the clear implication is that those who don’t agree to hold hands aren’t being faithful to Jesus’ call, or are sonehow disassociated from those around them.

No, I said that those who don’t want to hold hands, should not be forced to. There is a polite way of making it obvious. However, being rude is not one of the ways, whether your for or against holding hands.

.

What is this obsession with PROVING community?

Its not proving community, but BEING a community. Big difference.

Community just happens. It can’t be forced.

Love is a decision. You either reach out to others, or you don’t. Your choice. A community doesn’t come together by accident. It takes people coming together and reaching out toward one another, even when they have leprosy.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

---

Bingo — By the very act of extending the hand — a person is imposing him/her self on another.

A person extending their hand isn’t trying to offend you. If you chose not to hold hands during the Lord’s prayer, fine, don’t. Close your eyes and fold your hands. But don’t chastise the person for reaching out to include you.

Jim

 

[MrS]

Or it is both. One can not escape the fact that it is a plural, not singular prayer. One can err either way. Even the Eucharistic prayers are the prayers of the Chuch, not the individual. That is why individual priests are forbidden to deviate from it.

Can not agree there at all. The “fact” is actually that He is OUR Father, not just yours or mine, and we can prayer to Him on our own too. And we pray that (each of) us receive our (own) daily bread, not each others… etc etc.

This thinking is also what has been used to “change” the Creed. We now are told to say “We believe in God…” Blah!!! Credo has never meant “we believe”… It is “I” believe, pure and simple.

After the “we’s” of Adoramus(we), Laudamus(we), Glorificamus(we) we stand and proclaim our singular beliefs with Credo(I).

Same for the Our Father. We have had the unity of prayer now sealed with the Amen. Then it is our own turn to stand and pray as the Lord taught us.

…but then, many have a different idea of what is meant by “active participation”.

.

Thankfully that is being corrected in the next translation.

 

[AlexV]

You seem to have this obsession with “proving” community.

In other words, communities hold hands. If you don’t hold hands, you’re not being part of the community.

Huh? Come again?

There’s also the “us vs. them” mentality. OUR COMMUNITY holds hands. The clear implication is all present should do it. Oh, yes, not be forced…how charitable of you…but the clear implication is you’re somehow a bit off/odd if you don’t accept.

And that’s the problem. YOU ARE forcing people to hold hands. You’re not holding a gun to them, or a knife, but you’re making an expectation clear and you are putting the burden on them to respond.

Communities do not need to be proven by how many people are holding hands. It is possible to have a community where people aren’t touching each other during Mass. As hard as that is for you to believe.

Your logic is the same logic that leads some to argue that “active participation” REQUIRES audible responses, as if mental participation were somehow not active.

Again, holding hands is YOUR choice. Don’t impose it on others and make them justify why they don’t want to do it. Again, your logic is the same as that of those who ask people why they don’t receive from the chalice…after all, WHY NOT receive?

Answer: their choice. Acceptable, legitimate, and without the need to provide defensive documentation.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
Bingo — By the very act of extending the hand — a person is imposing him/her self on another.

A person extending their hand isn’t trying to offend you. If you chose not to hold hands during the Lord’s prayer, fine, don’t. Close your eyes and fold your hands. But don’t chastise the person for reaching out to include you.

Jim

---

Extending ones hand is Not an act of “kindness”. It is an extension of their own self desire. There is no “kindness” in putting another person in the position of denying the extended hand.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

---

Extending ones hand is Not an act of “kindness”. It is an extension of their own self desire. There is no “kindness” in putting another person in the position of denying the extended hand.

You able to read the heart of the person extending their hand to you?

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

AlexV

You seem to have this obsession with “proving” community.

Not trying to prove anything, but being part of a community, is a reality of parish life. Sorry it upsets you.

In other words, communities hold hands. If you don’t hold hands, you’re not being part of the community.

This is your idea, not mine.

Jim

 

[DJgang]

Don’t hold my hand out to a stranger, while at Mass, are you serious? Perhaps this stranger is lonely, or a new person in the parish, and wants to meet people. Why do we have to celebrate Mass as strangers, why not as friends?

You seem to have anxiety about people. Thats an issue you need to deal with. But please don’t tell me I must be unfriendly to people, because it makes you feel uncomfortable.

Jesus asked that we should love one another, as he has loved us.
I don’t know how this is possible, sitting in the church pew disassociating yourself with everyone around you.

Jim

Wow, Jim…

I was just relating my issue, letting you know that it does exist… just in case you might feel compelled to understand that not everyone feels right about holding hands.

I’m not telling you to be unfriendly. By holding someone’s hand, you feel this is the only way to show friendliness? There are other ways…a smile, a chat, a comment, saying Peace Be With You…just by not holding someone’s hand, you ARE NOT disassociating yourself from people. Some people just are NOT touchy feely…

Just like I said before…food for thought for you.

We can love one another in other ways than holding hand during the Our Father…

 

[benedictgal]

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Extending ones hand is Not an act of “kindness”. It is an extension of their own self desire. There is no “kindness” in putting another person in the position of denying the extended hand.

This is especially true if, as happened in my case, someone goes all the way out to your end of the pew and grabs your hand. Furthermore, this posture is no where in the rubrics of the GIRM nor is it covered by Redemptionis Sacramentum. It’s just one of those practices that crept in with the charismatic movement (very Pentecostal).

Pnewton is right in the sense that the Our Father is not the My Father; however, it is important that the hand-holding pewmates respect those of us who do not wish to hold hands. If we truly believe that we are a community, then, we need to respect the wishes of those among us who would rather not hold hands and not be forced into an uncomfortable situation.