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benedictgal
Guest
Thank you. Incidentally, I emailed the priest and lauded him for the action he took.benedictgal:
By the way, I love your signature!
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ncjohn
Guest
No, actually he did not. A person, or persons, spontaneously doing something with their hands without directing someone else to do so is NOT introducing something into the Mass any more than someone sneezing is introducing something into the Mass. We have to do something with our hands as they are attached to our body. Using your approach someone could ban holding their child or putting their hands on the back of the pew since those are not in the rubrics either.The rubrics do not address what position one is to have their hands in. If I want to hold my wifeâs hand or my childâs hand, or my neighborâs hand (with his or her consent), that is my business and it is not addressed.
Again, the USCCB was clear when asked about hand postures that there is no prescribed position. Had they wished to prescribe one they could have; had they wished to ban this one they similarly could have. They did neither.
Absolutely not. I made very clear that NOBODY is allowed to instigate or direct that such an activity occur. That clearly would be inserting something into the liturgy by virtue of being a directed activity.Of course there is also the issue that the priest is to be at the altar with his hands in the Orans position at that time as I noted.
âLiturgically inappropriateâ in this case is a matter of personal preference and interpretation. As something that has been around unabated for well over the time needed to become a âcustomâ under Canon law, it quite possibly could not be banned at all at this point short of a Papal declaration of some type.
If an individual is clearly doing something âinappropriateâ in Mass, like jumping jacks down the aisle, there are mechanisms for dealing with that. Holding hands during the Our Father, whether you personally approve of it or not, is a prayerful position assumed by many, possibly the majority, within the Church.
When a quite conservative bishop such as Archbishop Chaput acknowledges that there is nothing wrong with it but that we should act with charity in not imposing on each other, I donât think it comes from a lack of knowledge of what the requirements are. I personally find it the model of charity on the topic. archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_18_02_our_father_liturgy.htm
From the document:
Some people feel that holding hands during the âOur Fatherâ enhances a sense of community. This is perfectly appropriate â so long as it can be done with dignity and without the unseemly acrobatics that sometimes ensue.
Peace,
B
blaskoman
Guest
Toward the end of the Our Father, the hand holders lift up their arms (the lift off stage)âŚkids particularly love that part and tend to exaggerate the gesture.
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Indyann
Guest
Thanks for that link, John.
Especially pertinent is this statement
âThus, those involved in liturgical education should take special care not to allow their private preferences to influence their workâ
Especially pertinent is this statement
âThus, those involved in liturgical education should take special care not to allow their private preferences to influence their workâ
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
The parish I belong to is very small. We hold hands during the Our Father and yes, this includes the priest, lector, EMHC and altar servers, around the altar.
Those who refuse to hold hands, pretty much carry the same âleave me aloneâ attitude outside of Mass and so people give them their space.
Jim
Those who refuse to hold hands, pretty much carry the same âleave me aloneâ attitude outside of Mass and so people give them their space.
Jim
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chrisb
Guest
We do this at our parish⌠itâs a community thing. Donât hate us.
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benedictgal
Guest
But, this statement comes from the Metropolitan for the Archdiocse of Denver, and not from any documents of the Holy See. That is all good and well for his Metropolitan See, but, it does not cover the universal Church.
Furthermore, the issue of hand-holding places an undue emphasis on the horizontal while ignoring the veritcal. The Pater Noster is not about âusâ. The notion of forming âcommunityâ is false. Yes, we worship as a group, but, we are not directing anything towards ourselves. We are directing this prayer towards Our Father.
Bishop Peter Elliott, in his book, The Liturgical Question Box, notes that this posture doesnât really convey much. He said that if you were to stand back and look at it objectively, it looks silly.
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MrS
Guest
I wonder if the priest referred to in this blog is aware of that?
unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2008/08/i-thought-id-heard-it-all.html
He is a âlate-vocationâ and took over from a canonical administrator at the parish. This is kinda strange⌠but not unusual for him to do.
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ncjohn
Guest
Again, I donât want to get into the âgood or badâ personal preferences issues. If it looks silly to you and or someone else, and they want to start making judgments about people based on that, that is their prerogative. What looks silly to you or Bishop Elliott is quite meaningful to others. Given the vast numbers of people who do so, apparently the âsillyâ argument doesnât hold up with them.
You are similarly free to feel that it changes the emphasis; others of us totally disagree as we find this to be our communal petition to OUR Father, which is unique to the liturgy, and that this visible sign, like other visible signs in our worship, is more than appropriate. Again a preference and perception issue which is not about binding anyone.
As to the statement I cited, yes it was made by Archbishop Chaput, but it is reflective of the USCCB position. It is certainly not universal as the Church has proposed nothing universal. But the Churchâs one comment on the issue, the famous Noticiae from 1975, commented that holding hands could not be substituted for the Sign of Peace while specifically not in any way condemning holding hands. I have yet to see a single person who could produce a single official statement from the Vatican that says that this was inappropriate and should be stopped. When Cardinal Arinze was in this country and was asked, he made it quite clear that it was not on the Vaticanâs agenda.
It is quite clear that it is not illicit, at least in this country. The USCCB did address it and their determinationâthat there is no prescribed position for the hands during the Our FatherâIS binding on the Church in this country. As such an individual priest is beyond his authority to create his own ban.
We do still need to always be charitable and ready to give each other the benefit of the doubt as to oneâs intentions and piety. Iâll promise to not brand somebody as cold or âuber piousâ if those who donât like it will agree to not brand me as some kind of misguided âtouchy feelyâ liberal. Anyone who knows me would testify that I am nothing of the sort.
Peace,
B
benedictgal
Guest
I do think that our local priest is making a good effort in trying to restore the vertical aspect of the liturgy through his actions. Heâs not necessarily the most conservative of the bunch, I can assure you of that. However, he understands that there have been misguided efforts at âcommunityâ involvement and horizontalism.
Furthermore, having visited that parish on numerous occasions, I donât appreciate being manhandled by people who want to hold my hand, no matter how far I sit away from them. Yes, people will go all the way to where someone is to grab their hand. From his vantage point, the celebrant has seen this happen all too many times.
I am a little leery of the USCCB, especially with recent inaction concerning the new translation of the Roman Missal and the way the conference handled the document, A New Song for the Lord. I do not mean disrespect; however, conferences do tend to either go too far or not at all, as was the case in the year 2000 when the Australian Bishops were taken to task for their wholesale granting of General Absolution, to the point that the late Pope John Paul II had the CDWDS issue a document stipulating just how the Sacrament of Penance should be handled.
Furthermore, having visited that parish on numerous occasions, I donât appreciate being manhandled by people who want to hold my hand, no matter how far I sit away from them. Yes, people will go all the way to where someone is to grab their hand. From his vantage point, the celebrant has seen this happen all too many times.
I am a little leery of the USCCB, especially with recent inaction concerning the new translation of the Roman Missal and the way the conference handled the document, A New Song for the Lord. I do not mean disrespect; however, conferences do tend to either go too far or not at all, as was the case in the year 2000 when the Australian Bishops were taken to task for their wholesale granting of General Absolution, to the point that the late Pope John Paul II had the CDWDS issue a document stipulating just how the Sacrament of Penance should be handled.
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ncjohn
Guest
I truly do sympathize with oneâs discomfort when the âgrabbingâ stuff occurs. The priest addressing that in charity should most certainly be occurring. As the example you mention shows though, there are mechanisms for things that are truly abuses. And none of those mechanisms have been employed by the Vatican despite some people questioning this for nearly forty years.
And while it is possible to get overly horizontal, the community that we worship in is a very important aspect of our worship. There is no âme and Jesusâ; it has to be all of us and Jesus. In saying that Iâm not advocating a communal love fest in any way, but the one communal petition to the Father with a visible sign of such, does not constitute horizontalism. Itâs a simple acknowledgement of our common need as human beings before the Father.
As to being leery of the USCCB, that is your prerogative. You are welcome to fully disagree with their determination on the matter, longstanding though it has been. And you are similarly entitled to wish the Vatican would step and do something. But they havenât so far, so to insist that there is something illicit going on would not be proper.
I donât pretend that we have an ideal situation. Iâve been on both âsidesâ of the preference, having gone out of my way to sit in places where I would not have to âendureâ it in my younger years. But after lots of study on the issue, I have come to the conclusion that given its existence we need to find a way to live charitably with each other and to stop creating divisions over someoneâs expression of their piety.
Now if the darn âgrabbersâ would just stop making good people like you and Mr. S uncomfortableâŚ
Peace,
R
Rachel_J
Guest
Until your priest chews you all out and insists you move up closer. Donât you just hate when they do that?
Never experienced it. Our church can sit 800 - but daily mass has at most 30. And weâre spread out front to back. The priest doesnât care. It makes it easier for him to greet everyone on his walk out.
Iâd be down right annoyed if he did mention it. Iâll sit where I want to and if that is by myself in the back pew then yay for me. Anyone who doesnât like it can deal with it without involving me.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
You are leery of the authority the Pope has approved? Seems that you are obedient only when you agreeâŚnot really what I would call obedience.
John has made some vary valid points. It is not about our likes or dislikes of uninstructed postures, but about community worship, and charity in our preferences. Would you also say striking your breast or making the sign of the cross is wrong? I really have come to dislike handholding, especially when some believe that the entire congregation should smehow be connected, but I do try not to snub anyone, if they feel the need for this connection.
I doubt it will go away, expecially with the number of priests in AA, but I do wish it would remain a sober voluntary gesture and only with those nearbyâno grabbing or conga lines.
Lux
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benedictgal
Guest
Perhaps you didnât read the section that you culled from my quote. Bishops conferences have been known to make mistakes. They are not infallible. The issue of General Absolution that plagued the Aussie Conference is one very notable example. It took direct intervention from the late Pope John Paul II to solve that big problem and it resulted in the promulgation of the Circular Letter on the Integrity of the Sacrament of Penance.
Furthermore, our own conference had the opportunity to approve the new translations of the propers and failed to do so. They also had the opportunity to release a document that had some teeth to it regarding sacred music; however, a very strong lobbying effort on the part of the NPM and the FDLC reduced A New Song to the Lord to a paper tiger.
Hopefully, with the new leadership in the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship, the train will move quicker.
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VociMike
Guest
Since when does âleeryâ equal âdisobedientâ?
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
BG,
You have not commented on the rest of my post.
Lux
You have not commented on the rest of my post.
When I quote the response of the USccb, you say you are leery, this is not what I would call the spirit of obedience. The USCCB has said no posture is prescribed, yet some condemn those who instruct a posture they dislike, yet applaud those who instruct what they prefer. It is not the posture, but the act of instructing which is wrong.
Lux
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MrS
Guest
Now if the darn âgrabbersâ would just stop making good people like you and Mr. S uncomfortableâŚ
Peace,
Where/when did I ever, EVER, indicate that hand-holders made me uncomfortable? Generally, my eyes are closed during the Our Father, and my hands folded in front of me. And generally I attend a Mass where there is little or no hand-holding.In the few cases where I find myself in the midst of active participators, I still refrain, if possible, from the innovation. Only one time, no make that two, have I been accosted by a very elderly lady with a walker, and a darling little girl in pigtails. I smacked them both into Advent with the hard cover Gather Hymnal, and I trust their ears are still ringing to the sound of Gather Us In.
.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Iâd like to bring up something up regarding the âuncomfortable with handholding notionâ as it personally affects me, and possibly many others as well.
Some people get the notion that those who are âuncomfortableâ with handholding are standoffish, snobby elitists who think theyâre more Catholic than the Pope.
Well, this âuncomfortable with handholding personâ (me) is not so âfigurativelyâ uncomfortable --Iâm literally uncomfortable!
I have âfrozen shoulder syndromeâ. I look like a perfectly healthy middle aged woman, not a fragile elderly person. . .but right now I can barely move my right shoulder and upper arm up, down, or sideways without exquisite pain. This kind of syndrome comes on slowly, runs its course in about 12-18 months, and then subsides slowly. I had it happen in my left shoulder, and as the left âhealedâ, the right became affected. While it was not so noticeable when I had the pain in my left shoulder, since more people tend to be âright handedâ and to reach for the right handâwell, I try to âfoldâ hands, I try to stay âin the backâ (but sometimes people come in and âsqueezeâ next to me in a friendly spirit) and when people grab --and they DO grabâit is agony! So I wince, or even grimace, or pull backâand unless I start babbling away, loudly enough to be heard by the 20 or so people who are going to want to âshake handsâ, that, sorry, I have a âcrippledâ arm, no offenseâI get the evil eye and the (unfair) whispered reputation killers of "donât bother with THAT womanâsheâs too snooty and holier-than-thou.
Why, to satisfy the emotional âdesiresâ (not needs, even) of a few who want to impose this gesture onto everyone, are others who suffer physical as well as emotional distress of some extent made to feel like the villians of the piece?
I canât help but feel that there was a good reason that this gesture never existed throughout most of liturgical history. As with so many ânoveltiesâ, nobody really thought the whole thing through. Everybody was so caught up with the idea of âpeace, love, brotherhood, we-are-familyâ and just assumed that everybody else would see ONLY this, would FEEL only this --that it was an inspired gesture of universal perfection. . .and thus, that anybody who questions it is automatically AGAINST âpeace, love, brother-and-sisterhood, we-are-familyâ. . .and thus, automatically divisive, hateful, elitist snobs.
We would never have all this ill feeling if some people, somewhere, with âgood intentionsâ but very little empathy or consideration for any viewpoint other than their own, had not âdecidedâ to make the liturgy more meaningful, loving, and goodâin THEIR opinion, and for THEIR satisfaction.
Nobody is trying to deprive people from handholding. . .or even labeling them or judging them or condemning them. . .
But please, in its proper place! That place is NOT during the liturgy.
I understand people wanting to give gestures that âshowâ more âloveâ. . .and Iâll gladly greet you, talk with you, hug you (with my left arm, please!) etc. . .outside the liturgy. When it is appropriate. When it doesnât become nearly a âlitmus testâ for how âwarm and friendlyâ, or how âsnobby and coldâ I am âjudgedâ to appear by others.
Physical distress. . .emotional distress. . . maybe they arenât the ânormalâ response that âyouâ would feel, maybe itâs hard to put yourself into our shoes. . .but arenât you supposed to consider our needs as much as weâre supposed to consider yours --and if there is a âconflictâ, arenât we supposed to try to work things out and not just be shunted aside with âmajority rules-- like it or lump it?â
Some people get the notion that those who are âuncomfortableâ with handholding are standoffish, snobby elitists who think theyâre more Catholic than the Pope.
Well, this âuncomfortable with handholding personâ (me) is not so âfigurativelyâ uncomfortable --Iâm literally uncomfortable!
I have âfrozen shoulder syndromeâ. I look like a perfectly healthy middle aged woman, not a fragile elderly person. . .but right now I can barely move my right shoulder and upper arm up, down, or sideways without exquisite pain. This kind of syndrome comes on slowly, runs its course in about 12-18 months, and then subsides slowly. I had it happen in my left shoulder, and as the left âhealedâ, the right became affected. While it was not so noticeable when I had the pain in my left shoulder, since more people tend to be âright handedâ and to reach for the right handâwell, I try to âfoldâ hands, I try to stay âin the backâ (but sometimes people come in and âsqueezeâ next to me in a friendly spirit) and when people grab --and they DO grabâit is agony! So I wince, or even grimace, or pull backâand unless I start babbling away, loudly enough to be heard by the 20 or so people who are going to want to âshake handsâ, that, sorry, I have a âcrippledâ arm, no offenseâI get the evil eye and the (unfair) whispered reputation killers of "donât bother with THAT womanâsheâs too snooty and holier-than-thou.
Why, to satisfy the emotional âdesiresâ (not needs, even) of a few who want to impose this gesture onto everyone, are others who suffer physical as well as emotional distress of some extent made to feel like the villians of the piece?
I canât help but feel that there was a good reason that this gesture never existed throughout most of liturgical history. As with so many ânoveltiesâ, nobody really thought the whole thing through. Everybody was so caught up with the idea of âpeace, love, brotherhood, we-are-familyâ and just assumed that everybody else would see ONLY this, would FEEL only this --that it was an inspired gesture of universal perfection. . .and thus, that anybody who questions it is automatically AGAINST âpeace, love, brother-and-sisterhood, we-are-familyâ. . .and thus, automatically divisive, hateful, elitist snobs.
We would never have all this ill feeling if some people, somewhere, with âgood intentionsâ but very little empathy or consideration for any viewpoint other than their own, had not âdecidedâ to make the liturgy more meaningful, loving, and goodâin THEIR opinion, and for THEIR satisfaction.
Nobody is trying to deprive people from handholding. . .or even labeling them or judging them or condemning them. . .
But please, in its proper place! That place is NOT during the liturgy.
I understand people wanting to give gestures that âshowâ more âloveâ. . .and Iâll gladly greet you, talk with you, hug you (with my left arm, please!) etc. . .outside the liturgy. When it is appropriate. When it doesnât become nearly a âlitmus testâ for how âwarm and friendlyâ, or how âsnobby and coldâ I am âjudgedâ to appear by others.
Physical distress. . .emotional distress. . . maybe they arenât the ânormalâ response that âyouâ would feel, maybe itâs hard to put yourself into our shoes. . .but arenât you supposed to consider our needs as much as weâre supposed to consider yours --and if there is a âconflictâ, arenât we supposed to try to work things out and not just be shunted aside with âmajority rules-- like it or lump it?â
B
BostonMyrtleBea
Guest
My experience exactly! My sister was so shocked that she never returned. I went a few more times, but sat in a folded chair as far away as possible. Even the aisles were blocked from the front to the back. And then the hand RAISING? Goodness gracious, itâs just too darn strange for me. Thank goodness I moved to a new parish.
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