Holding Hands

[BayCityRickL]

Did anybody study math out there?

Remember “least common denominator”?

I think the handshake should be the same with everybody. Please leave hugs, kisses, and embraces at the door of the church – embracing is not what the sign of peace is about. If somebody has to drag you into church to hug your mom, then you have a problem that should be handled elsewhere. The “sign of peace” is not about romance.

It is about something deeper that we share with each other person in the same way. If you’re not going to kiss everybody, then don’t kiss anybody.

 

[Lapsed]

I’m contemplating returning to the Church after nearly two decades away. I went to a Mass and was completely unprepared for the hand holding generally done during the Lord’s Prayer.

I am very uncomfortable with such practices. Shaking hands with strangers is one thing - holding hands is something I do with my wife and children.

I felt that not participating in this was simply not an option, so I held hands and was distracted for the rest of the Mass. This particular practise is enough to keep me from returning to the Church, I am that uncomfortable with it.

It seems to that especially during the Lord’s Prayer our focus should be exclusively on Our Father Who art in Heaven. Holding hands with strangers is most definitely a distraction.

How has this sort of peer pressure practise been allowed to flourish? Where have the Bishops been on this issue?

 

[RobNY]

HagiaSophia:

Of course, most Catholics are neither vehemently touch-feely nor vehemently traditional. I’m not a big fan of hand-holding and have even complained about it in print. To me, it smacks of enforced good cheer and saccharine singalongs. But the trouble with being against hand-holding is that it puts you in league with the church’s most ultra-orthodox flat-Earthers. It’s a dilemma: Hold hands and give up a bit of the traditional Catholic solemnity, or forsake your neighbor’s hand for a rosary and take refuge in the practices of the past. It’s a choice between retrenchment and assimilation.

I hope this is creative hyperbole, because the people who are against holding hands certainly aren’t for replacing it with the rosary.

Otherwise though, it’s an ok article. Personally, I want a NO like Lux_et_Veritas’s parish.

 

[ncjohn]

Lapsed:

I’m contemplating returning to the Church after nearly two decades away. I went to a Mass and was completely unprepared for the hand holding generally done during the Lord’s Prayer.

I am very uncomfortable with such practices. Shaking hands with strangers is one thing - holding hands is something I do with my wife and children.

I felt that not participating in this was simply not an option, so I held hands and was distracted for the rest of the Mass. This particular practise is enough to keep me from returning to the Church, I am that uncomfortable with it.

It seems to that especially during the Lord’s Prayer our focus should be exclusively on Our Father Who art in Heaven. Holding hands with strangers is most definitely a distraction.

How has this sort of peer pressure practise been allowed to flourish? Where have the Bishops been on this issue?

Hi Lapsed,

I can understand your discomfort, especially if you have been away from the Church for a while.

While I am one who finds a valid sign of communion in this approach to Our Father, I also recognize that others don’t want to participate, and I don’t believe that anyone should feel “pressured” to if they do not wish to.

If you really feel like it is “not an option” in your parish, PLEASE talk to your priest and address that and ask if he would make it clear that nobody should be pushing their preferences on anyone else.

I for one apologize if there is an overzealousness present, as to me it is inconsiderate and uncharitable for either side to be pushing its views on the other. That is exactly what leads to distrust and antagonism that we don’t need.

My prayers are with you as you begin your journey back.

Peace,

 

[Dr.Bombay]

ncjohn:

Unfortunately, much of the discussion here is specifically insulting. Commenting about grabbing private parts or picking noses, making ridiculous statements about people being punched and assaulted for not participating, referring to people as “whacky liberals” because they see a legitimate devotion, etc, are all condescending and insulting and lend nothing but “heat” to the discussion. Implying that people are out to destroy the Church because they reach out in love goes beyond being insulting.

There wasn’t any nose picking involved in this thread at all. That was another one. Do please try to keep my ridiculous analogies straight.

BTW, you haven’t yet produced a document from the Holy See or the USCCB that prohibits fraternal nose picking during the Our Father. I’m still waiting. Until then, I will feel free to pick away.

As for “ridiculous statements” about being assaulted, just do a forum search. It may take you several hours to wade thru all the hand holding posts, but you’ll find what I’m talking about. Now, I can’t speak to whether what was posted is true or not. But it certainly sounded plausible to me. Libs get very nasty when you don’t share their peculiar vision of Catholic “community.” How many liberal Catholics does it take to change a light bulb? Two. They change it together and call you uncharitable for not helping them. :nope:

 

[ncjohn]

Dr. Bombay:

There wasn’t any nose picking involved in this thread at all. That was another one. Do please try to keep my ridiculous analogies straight.

BTW, you haven’t yet produced a document from the Holy See or the USCCB that prohibits fraternal nose picking during the Our Father. I’m still waiting. Until then, I will feel free to pick away.

As for “ridiculous statements” about being assaulted, just do a forum search. It may take you several hours to wade thru all the hand holding posts, but you’ll find what I’m talking about. Now, I can’t speak to whether what was posted is true or not. But it certainly sounded plausible to me. Libs get very nasty when you don’t share their peculiar vision of Catholic “community.” How many liberal Catholics does it take to change a light bulb? Two. They change it together and call you uncharitable for not helping them. :nope:

I’m curious here Dr Bombay,

Do you see me as “the enemy?” Is there some position that I have personally taken that you find unkind or uncharitable? Have you found me to be seeking anything other than peace and a willingness to try to work together?

Do you consider me a “liberal?” If so, on what basis? Have you found me to espouse some position that is forbidden by the Church or outside of the Gospel?

I’m just curious as to what it is about what I say that so offends you as I really try my best not to offend anyone and to get us to a point where we can all try to come to some peace without stifling each other. Maybe that’s a bad thing and I’m supposed to be trying to create a schism, but I don’t think that way and I don’t think you do. If, as I believe, we are both trying in good faith to act for the good of the Kingdom, what should I be doing differently?

Peace be with you,

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

I’m curious here Dr Bombay,

Do you see me as “the enemy?” Is there some position that I have personally taken that you find unkind or uncharitable? Have you found me to be seeking anything other than peace and a willingness to try to work together?

Do you consider me a “liberal?” If so, on what basis? Have you found me to espouse some position that is forbidden by the Church or outside of the Gospel?

I’m just curious as to what it is about what I say that so offends you as I really try my best not to offend anyone and to get us to a point where we can all try to come to some peace without stifling each other. Maybe that’s a bad thing and I’m supposed to be trying to create a schism, but I don’t think that way and I don’t think you do. If, as I believe, we are both trying in good faith to act for the good of the Kingdom, what should I be doing differently?

Peace be with you,

Aw come on John, that’s not fair.
You and some of the other people really take the sarcastic posts ABOUT the actions or attitudes of liberals as a personal thing. It’s not. As I tell my children, I love you always, but I sometimes hate the way you act. That’s what it’s about here. Dr. Bombay (my hero) doesn’t think of you as an enemy but those ideas that you subscribe to are aborant to those of us who have watched our pious liturgy taken AWAY by modernists. We have no other choice in some parts of the country. It’s not about you, it’s about the behavior of those who advocate the same actions that you do.

It used to say in my signature line, “If you don’t see your name, don’t personalize my posts.” That really is how it is.

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Aw come on John, that’s not fair.
You and some of the other people really take the sarcastic posts ABOUT the actions or attitudes of liberals as a personal thing. It’s not. As I tell my children, I love you always, but I sometimes hate the way you act. That’s what it’s about here. Dr. Bombay (my hero) doesn’t think of you as an enemy but those ideas that you subscribe to are aborant to those of us who have watched our pious liturgy taken AWAY by modernists. We have no other choice in some parts of the country. It’s not about you, it’s about the behavior of those who advocate the same actions that you do.

It used to say in my signature line, “If you don’t see your name, don’t personalize my posts.” That really is how it is.

I guess that’s the question. Which ideas that I subscribe to are abhorant?

That I believe, and the Church has not disagreed, that it’s ok to hold hands as long as I don’t ask anyone else to?

That I believe, and the Church has not disagreed, that it’s ok for someone to lift their hands in the Orans position during the Our Father, as long as I don’t ask anyone else to?

That I believe that both Latin and vernacular masses should be available?

I’m confused as to how you think I am trying to take away any pious liturgy since I have advocated, as have you, having liturgies available to speak to people in the way they respond best. Certainly there are some places that only have one priest and one or two masses, and someone is going to have to make decisions in those cases, but they are certainly the exception and I would advocate reasonable compromise to make things work for all concerned, just as places have to now with language issues with large immigrant populations.

As to taking them personally, yes I do, and personally feel that sarcasm has no place as a debate or apologetics tool, especially in a Catholic Forum. If we can’t treat each other’s souls with love and respect, I don’t think we should be trying to speak for God or the Church.

I constantly hear the complaint from some describing themselves as Traditionalists that “liberals” don’t have rational arguments so they just indulge in emotions and name calling. Yet here I am having to ask why the rational positions I propose are subject to constant sarcasm and name calling when all I request is peaceful coexistence and mutual respect. Quite frankly, I don’t consider myself a liberal anyway, just a mainstream Catholic who believes and tries to live the teachings of Vatican 2.

In my understanding, we are all God’s children, equally and infinitely loved by Him. To my mind, that means I have to do my best to treat each of them as my brother or sister, and do my best to find the “face of Christ” in each of them. I guess I just have a hard time finding room in that for insult or sarcasm.

I ask forgiveness for my seventy times seven bad attempts, or badly communicated attempts, to bring us together as the Body of Christ and the Catholic Church. I further ask forgiveness and hope you won’t be too disappointed that I will continue to do so.

Peace to all,

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

I guess that’s the question. Which ideas that I subscribe to are abhorant?

That I believe, and the Church has not disagreed, that it’s ok to hold hands as long as I don’t ask anyone else to?

That I believe, and the Church has not disagreed, that it’s ok for someone to lift their hands in the Orans position during the Our Father, as long as I don’t ask anyone else to?

That I believe that both Latin and vernacular masses should be available?

I’m confused as to how you think I am trying to take away any pious liturgy since I have advocated, as have you, having liturgies available to speak to people in the way they respond best. Certainly there are some places that only have one priest and one or two masses, and someone is going to have to make decisions in those cases, but they are certainly the exception and I would advocate reasonable compromise to make things work for all concerned, just as places have to now with language issues with large immigrant populations.

As to taking them personally, yes I do, and personally feel that sarcasm has no place as a debate or apologetics tool, especially in a Catholic Forum. If we can’t treat each other’s souls with love and respect, I don’t think we should be trying to speak for God or the Church.

I constantly hear the complaint from some describing themselves as Traditionalists that “liberals” don’t have rational arguments so they just indulge in emotions and name calling. Yet here I am having to ask why the rational positions I propose are subject to constant sarcasm and name calling when all I request is peaceful coexistence and mutual respect. Quite frankly, I don’t consider myself a liberal anyway, just a mainstream Catholic who believes and tries to live the teachings of Vatican 2.

In my understanding, we are all God’s children, equally and infinitely loved by Him. To my mind, that means I have to do my best to treat each of them as my brother or sister, and do my best to find the “face of Christ” in each of them. I guess I just have a hard time finding room in that for insult or sarcasm.

I ask forgiveness for my seventy times seven bad attempts, or badly communicated attempts, to bring us together as the Body of Christ and the Catholic Church. I further ask forgiveness and hope you won’t be too disappointed that I will continue to do so.

Peace to all,

Like I said John, as you can see by the pink, you are looking at the debate concerning certain postures or innovations and turning it into an "I’. It’s really not personal, you are taking it personally, in an unwarranted way. Mysty did the same to me. She would take my distain for Protestant Handholding (sorry but the only place I have seen this before moving to my area was at my In-law’s dinner table) and scream that I slapped her in the face insulting her. I never insulted her, I did insult what I consider to be an action contrary to my Catholic upbringing. To follow that, any insult by anyone was attributed to me, then she took the martyr role.
You seem to taking the debate about the postures we don’t like and personalizing them. Don’t. There is no reason to. As I said to my daughter when she does something horrible, it is not her, it’s her actions. Those posture are what we are against, not you personally. You will not convince those of us who want Historically Catholic gestures that we should make ourselves uncomfortable for your comfort. That is what you are asking us to do for “unity”.
Until we get a balance in traditions with modern liturgies, we will be appalled by those who defend those innovations. It’s a natural human reaction of fairness. If we can’t be comfortable, we’re not going to help you. It’s not you, it’s your defense of them that makes the openness of our statements come out.
It’s like a family, holiday table. We are comfortable enough to fight because we all love each other. Be strong in your convictions and do not belittle yourself to play the marytr. Ask forgiveness to your hearts content, but know what you are asking forgiveness for. Because we are comfortable we can say what we want. Rather than getting upset by it, use it to know the other side. Your eyes may well be open to how hurt people are by those on the “modern” side, who have stolen our liturgy, brainwashed our children and told us that this is the way it is so get used to it. And that’s what it is more than anything, we are hurt and have no where to vent but here.

God Bless you my Friend, I know you mean well. Just think of us as the Old Aunts and Uncles you only have to see once a year.

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Like I said John, as you can see by the pink, you are looking at the debate concerning certain postures or innovations and turning it into an "I’. It’s really not personal, you are taking it personally, in an unwarranted way.

Yes I am, because I through my positions am being personally attacked by quotes of my posts although I have continually expressed charitable applications that do not involve you or anyone else having to participate, while allowing those who want to the ability to not have it taken away. If someone was to say, “hey, I’ll work with you to that end” it would be a different story, but instead the continued implication is that anyone who believes it is ok is some kind of mugger just waiting to force you into something you don’t want to do. I just don’t buy that people won’t be considerate if they’re reminded and asked to be charitable.

To follow that, any insult by anyone was attributed to me

To be fair here, I have not attributed anything here to you. My questions were specifically directed to someone else and I am only responding here because you took up the opportunity to address it.

You seem to taking the debate about the postures we don’t like and personalizing them. Don’t. There is no reason to. As I said to my daughter when she does something horrible, it is not her, it’s her actions. Those posture are what we are against, not you personally…

And that is exactly my question. If I am advocating only allowing people to participate in something with which the Church has not disagreed, without asking anyone else to participate in it, what is the objection exactly? I’m not asking about attacking ME, I’m asking what it is about my positions of peaceful coexistence that you find objectionable.

You will not convince those of us who want Historically Catholic gestures that we should make ourselves uncomfortable for your comfort. That is what you are asking us to do for “unity”.

No, that is specifically NOT what I’m asking. Again, I am advocating allowing it for those who want to without imposing it on anyone else.

Until we get a balance in traditions with modern liturgies, we will be appalled by those who defend those innovations.

Again, is that balance not exactly what I have been advocating all along??

It’s like a family, holiday table. We are comfortable enough to fight because we all love each other.

While that may be true for you, I quite frankly don’t sense that from many here; rather I sense a desire to “squash” anyone with prefereces different from theirs. And frankly, even within family, as rough as that can get, I don’t believe that sarcasm and insult are appropriate tools for making one’s point. Would it be acceptable for me to use that tone to your daughter? I don’t believe it’s acceptable to use with any of God’s children.

Your eyes may well be open to how hurt people are by those on the “modern” side, who have stolen our liturgy, brainwashed our children and told us that this is the way it is so get used to it. And that’s what it is more than anything, we are hurt and have no where to vent but here.

And I guess this is what hurts me more than anything else. I feel like I am one of the ones trying to help restore the balance and relieve your pain, but because I want to be able to continue with the way that is meaningful to me, without “you” (generic, not personal) stealing my liturgy, but without asking you to feel imposed upon, I am still considered to be someone trying to hurt you.

I guess the question becomes, is it better to just sit back and live in your pain and lash out, or to find people who want to restore balance and work with them? For some here I fear the answer is that they don’t really want balance; they just want it all their way only, even though the Church doesn’t say that. If that’s the case, I guess I’m spinning my wheels, but if people are genuninely looking for balance, I’m trying to be part of the solution.

Peace,

 

[Orionthehunter]

NCJohn, I too think you are a measured voice trying to only express your views. Whenever given information that your position is contrary to Church Teaching or Authority, you always adjust your views. But in areas that flexibility and accommodation are accepted by the Church/Bishops, you try to defend the flexibility and accommodation. I applaud you for your efforts even when you and I personally might disagree.

Personally, I don’t like to hold hands (unless my wife or daughters are next to me) or raise them up in the Orans position. But if someone wants to hold my hand, I assent in charity as I ascribe no ill-intent to my neighbor. In fact, I think there is some “logic” to holding hands during this period of the Mass as it is the time that we join together as the Body of Christ to pray the Lord’s Prayer.

However, if these two postures were abuses, I have no doubt that my bishop and priest would have communicated that these were abuses. And until my bishop give me instruction otherwise or someone gives me solid information that these are abuses (and not just expressions of a personal ideal they wish to make universal), I will continue to do as I am.

When people assert that something is a “teaching” when it is a preference (regardless of which side you are on), they diminish their standing on matters that are really Teachings.

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

Yes I am. If someone was to say, “hey, I’ll work with you to that end” it would be a different story, My questions were specifically directed to someone else and I am only responding here because you took up the opportunity to address it.

I was giving an example. I never said you. However, I have seen this happen with others so I am pointing it out. People on both sides that hit below the belt. It’s not one sided and that needs to be addressed as well. Sometimes it’s not seen at all. Those that are openly sarcastic are easy to pick out, those who sugar coat the insults are not.
The problem is that we cannot work for a common end. You are not in my area and I am not in yours. Our frustrations come out here.
And you may not buy the idea of people being uncharitable, but I have lived it as have many people here. I would love it if when I pointed out to our DRE how people wanted a traditional liturgy, she jumped on it. She and her cronies ticked at it and ignored it. That’s what we live.

I’m asking what it is about my positions of peaceful coexistence that you find objectionable.

People have shown you where the church disagrees with some of these modern innovations, some the Bishops have chosen to ignore, some they have encouraged. It is up to the Bishops and not individuals. We have agreed on this.
You’ve seen the the quotes from Karl Keeting stating why hand holding is not correct in the liturgy nor American society. It makes many people uncomfortable as it is an intimate gesture to Americans. When encouraged by a DRE or Liturgical Commitee, it is not correct. To simply say that we don’t have to, makes a conscience effort on our part to seem uncharitable. Is that unity?

Again, I am advocating allowing it for those who want to without imposing it on anyone else.

I have stated many times that between friends and family groups it should be allowed and you know the side I’m on. I’ve stated that we should have a modern liturgy where people who want to do the innovations should be allowed to do it while having a traditional liturgy available. That has nothing to do with my distain for the innovations but rather the love of other Catholics who feel this way. We all come in on these threads and answer other people. It is not exclusive to me.

Again, is that balance not exactly what I have been advocating all along??

Both of us have stated that it is up to the Bishop. That is correct. Both of us have defended our positions on why we think others are wrong. This is a debate forum, and that is what it is for.

While that may be true for you, I quite frankly don’t sense that from many here; rather. And frankly, even within family, as rough as that can get, I don’t believe that sarcasm and insult are appropriate tools for making one’s point.

Take a cue from RobertaF. She defuses situations as she gets her point across. I respect her highly in her ways and try to learn from her. And while you feel that sarcasm does not belong in this debate, it’s here. Ignore it or answer it, but don’t take it personally. Those who use it here are not swiping at you, but the actions being discussed.

And I guess this is what hurts me more than anything else. I feel like I am one of the ones trying to help restore the balance and relieve your pain, but because I want to be able to continue with the way that is meaningful to me, without “you” (generic, not personal) stealing my liturgy, but without asking you to feel imposed upon.

And “we” do communicate. However, understanding how hurt people are will make it easier to say, “I feel for you”. Chastising someone for not being Christian is also hurtful. When we tell people how they should act and dismiss their experiences, it’s hard to not feel afronted.

I guess the question becomes, is it better to just sit back and live in your pain and lash out, or to find people who want to restore balance and work with them?

Why do you think that if someone is debating here that they are not working for it in their parishes or diocese? In my area, the position that you hold is on the top. It’s an enjoy it situation. My position must be fought for. Why defend your position if we live it? We must work for halfway because now it is far from that.
I feel that when we see a balance of power taking hold, we will see people switching sides. People are people, and especially Americans see the underdog and want to defend them. You can say that we should find the people who want to restore the balance but they are not in our churches in many areas. We are fighting lukewarm Catholics as well as modernists who have worked into power. We fight a double battle and some people will lash out at whomever they can. Validate their feelings and they will come around. Chastise them and they will stay the same.

I really do think you’re a peach John. You are one of the people here that try.

 

[netmilsmom]

Orionthehunter:

Personally, I don’t like to hold hands (unless my wife or daughters are next to me) or raise them up in the Orans position. But if someone wants to hold my hand, I assent in charity as I ascribe no ill-intent to my neighbor. In fact, I think there is some “logic” to holding hands during this period of the Mass as it is the time that we join together as the Body of Christ to pray the Lord’s Prayer.

Why do I have to seem “Uncharitable” when it comes it an innovation in the liturgy?
Why can’t I be offered an Historically Catholic mass where I do not have to seem this way?

 

[Orionthehunter]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Why do I have to seem “Uncharitable” when it comes it an innovation in the liturgy?
Why can’t I be offered an Historically Catholic mass where I do not have to seem this way?

I was only expressing myself. Since the Church as no Norm (note the use of the capitalized term rather than the norm done in certain parishes at particular Masses) as to what is appropriate, people on both sides should accept the others choice of posture (holding hands or not) charitably and not look on the other uncharitably.

I’m not sure I understand what a historical Catholic Mass is? I’m assuming that you mean the Catholic Mass originally introduced after Vatican II’s change to the vernacular and the Priest turned around. Since this is only less than four decades old, it wouldn’t really be historical in light of the 2000 years of history of the Church but a “flavor” that you prefer. Personally, I think we should charitably respect the preferred “flavor” of others so long as the “flavor” is not an innovative abuse as defined by the Church and its Bishops.

 

[netmilsmom]

Orionthehunter:

I was only expressing myself. Since the Church as no Norm (note the use of the capitalized term rather than the norm done in certain parishes at particular Masses) as to what is appropriate, people on both sides should accept the others choice of posture (holding hands or not) charitably and not look on the other uncharitably.

And yet, this happens all the time. People grabbing hands and denying others a handshake when refused. You make it seem like those who do not want to participate are uncharitable.
Where is handholding acceptable in American society? Family members, good friends, no where else. When this innovation is encouraged by the liturgical commitees, it isolates those who do not want to participate.
Note this from the Diocese of St. Louis…
Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged?

BCL Newsletter, October-November 1989

No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.

I’m not sure I understand what a historical Catholic Mass is? I’m assuming that you mean the Catholic Mass originally introduced after Vatican II’s change to the vernacular and the Priest turned around. Since this is only less than four decades old, it wouldn’t really be historical in light of the 2000 years of history of the Church.

It is much easier to look at what is not Historically Catholic. Folding hands is Historically Catholic. Holding Hands is a thirty year innovation by very few churches that has creeped into being in many diocese. In some diocese, it is still not done. Even if one takes the full 30 years, it’s a blip in the 2000 year history. If you ever reach your hand over, you are encouraging it. We all need to check with our Bishops before doing this.

 

[Orionthehunter]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

And yet, this happens all the time. People grabbing hands and denying others a handshake when refused. You make it seem like those who do not want to participate are uncharitable.
Where is handholding acceptable in American society? Family members, good friends, no where else. When this innovation is encouraged by the liturgical commitees, it isolates those who do not want to participate.

I’m confused. How can I have made it more clear that what I do not ascribe to what you asserted (see bolded section) in your post and that I think that charity should be extended both ways when I said:

people on both sides should accept the others choice of posture (holding hands or not) charitably and not look on the other uncharitably.

Regarding feeling isolated by a liturgical committee’s “encouragement” of holding hands, I think you should tell the “committee” and pastor that this is not a Norm required and that you are not comfortable holding hands. Furthermore, while you don’t assert that holding hands is necessarily an abuse, their “encouragement” thru formal means might be an attempt to “institutionalize” something that is not required. Such an effort creates confusion about Church Teaching and could be an abuse.

Then, if you believe it is an abuse, you can exercise your right and bring the matter in writing to your Bishop. In the meantime, you can choose to hold hands or not hold hands. If confronted with hostility by fellow parishioners, you can choose to inform them of your rationale after Mass or say a silent prayer for them to react more charitably in the future as you do your best to express your goodwill toward this misguided parishioner loved by God.

However, please don’t take your frustration out on me or through this forum or ascribe to me a position that is blatantly false. I am on your side as I don’t like either “customary” posture.

 

[netmilsmom]

Orionthehunter:

I’m confused. How can I have made it more clear that what I do not ascribe to what you asserted (see bolded section) in your post and that I think that charity should be extended both ways when I said:

Regarding feeling isolated by a liturgical committee’s “encouragement” of holding hands, I think you should tell the “committee” and pastor that this is not a Norm required and that you are not comfortable holding hands. Furthermore, while you don’t assert that holding hands is necessarily an abuse, their “encouragement” thru formal means might be an attempt to “institutionalize” something that is not required. Such an effort creates confusion about Church Teaching and could be an abuse.

Then, if you believe it is an abuse, you can exercise your right and bring the matter in writing to your Bishop. In the meantime, you can choose to hold hands or not hold hands. If confronted with hostility by fellow parishioners, you can choose to inform them of your rationale after Mass or say a silent prayer for them to react more charitably in the future as you do your best to express your goodwill toward this misguided parishioner loved by God.

However, please don’t take your frustration out on me or through this forum or ascribe to me a position that is blatantly false. I am on your side as I don’t like either “customary” posture.

I never stated that this is an abuse. It is an innovation. One which does not belong in some diocese per the Bishop. I have done all of the above and have been ignored by those in power.

But if someone wants to hold my hand, I assent in charity as I ascribe no ill-intent to my neighbor. In fact, I think there is some “logic” to holding hands during this period of the Mass as it is the time that we join together as the Body of Christ to pray the Lord’s Prayer.

This statement, while you know your intent, states to those of us who are on the non-innovation side of the debate, that you take the moral high road while we who speak against it are less charitable than you. I understand that this is not your intent now.
Perspective is something that cannot easily be seen in the written word.
Many times in the forums, stating that one will go along but does not like it, is reminicent of “I have lots of black friends” coming from someone who has made a racial remark. I see that you do not intend it this way.
I have no more frustrations since I have a historically Catholic parish to attend. I wish the same happiness for all of us who are stuck in the innovative, modernist parishes.

 

[Orionthehunter]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

This statement, while you know your intent, states to those of us who are on the non-innovation side of the debate, that you take the moral high road while we who speak against it are less charitable than you. I understand that this is not your intent now.
Perspective is something that cannot easily be seen in the written word.
Many times in the forums, stating that one will go along but does not like it, is reminicent of “I have lots of black friends” coming from someone who has made a racial remark. I see that you do not intend it this way.
I have no more frustrations since I have a historically Catholic parish to attend. I wish the same happiness for all of us who are stuck in the innovative, modernist parishes.

I’m sorry you misunderstood me as I was trying to be most clear in my attitude when assenting. I was trying to say I was assenting as an act of charity rather assenting “in submission” or “with a spirit of reluctance”.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

ncjohn:

I’m curious here Dr Bombay,

Do you see me as “the enemy?” Is there some position that I have personally taken that you find unkind or uncharitable? Have you found me to be seeking anything other than peace and a willingness to try to work together?

Do you consider me a “liberal?” If so, on what basis? Have you found me to espouse some position that is forbidden by the Church or outside of the Gospel?

I’m just curious as to what it is about what I say that so offends you as I really try my best not to offend anyone and to get us to a point where we can all try to come to some peace without stifling each other. Maybe that’s a bad thing and I’m supposed to be trying to create a schism, but I don’t think that way and I don’t think you do. If, as I believe, we are both trying in good faith to act for the good of the Kingdom, what should I be doing differently?

Peace be with you,

I only have one enemy, John. The same one as you and every other human being. Old Scratch. And he’ll do everything to drag us to hell, whether we’re holding hands or not.

The thing that irritates me about the hand-holding is peer pressure. It’s all very well to say that you don’t want to inflict your preferences on others, but if you’re in a congregation with 500 people, and you’re the only one who doesn’t want to hold hands, how many of us will have the tummy to refuse? And if you do, you’re automatically painted with the brush of being “uncharitable” or “unsociable.” Of course, you might be the victim of childhood sexual abuse who can’t stand to be touched by a stranger, or you might have severe arthritis or, like me, you just prefer to keep your focus at Mass vertical instead of horizontal. Besides, after the Our Father there’s plenty of opportunity for community time with the Sign of Peace. I always have and always will participate in the Sign of Peace when I attend the new Mass.

As to why I’m so vehement in opposing this: It’s because we’ve been down this road before, far too often. Communion in the hand and girl altar boys are two deviations from the norm that have now been approved but started out as abuses. Then we have armies of EMHC at most every Mass. They are supposed to be used in very limited and specific situations. Communion under both kinds, is now distributed at even daily Masses, a huge departure from the intent of the Fathers of Vatican II. Yes, the Mass in the people’s language is a wonderful gift to the Church. But was the intent to make it easier for priests to invent their own prayers? Because we see that all too often too. I’m telling you, John, you give these people an inch and they take a mile. No, they take about 50 miles.

And it doesn’t matter whether the Church issued an official document prohibiting the practice. It would be ignored in the vast majority of parishes where hand-holding is practiced. Even if it was brought to the attention of the pastor, he’d dismiss it with some catty remark about it just being a “guideline” or how he likes to follow the “spirit” of the law. But let me tell you, John. If Rome ever caves and approves this practice, as they’ve done far too often in the past, it’ll be shouted from the rooftops and those of us who are uncomfortable with it will be told to “grow up” or “Rome has approved, so get over it.”

That’s why I’ve drawn the line in the sand. I can tolerate the girl altar boys, the inventive prayers, a priest glad-handing from narthex to nave during the Sign of Peace, the glass chalices, the hoardes of EMHC, Church doctrine being ridiculed from the ambo, the"worship space" “we are church” “presider” and other sickening newchurch speak, the abstract felt wall hangings, the corpus-less crucifixes, the buzz-cut girls giving homilies and I can even tolerate Glory and Praise or Journeysongs. But that’s it. I’m making my stand right here. You will go this far and you will go no farther (further?).

And if that makes me uncharitable, or someone who just doesn’t understand the corporate worship aspect of the Mass, then so be it. I don’t care. I’m a bitter old coot anyway. Hands off! Darn kids. :tsktsk:

 

[Mordocai]

In my Parish, holding hands during the Our Father is common. But, sometimes I just don’t wanna
Here’s what I usually do:
If I don’t want to hold hands, as soon as the priest announces the the Lord’s Prayer, I just bow my bead, close my eyes, and fold my hands and raise them to my chest to indicate that I have no intention of holding hands.
I see nothing wrong with doing that to politely avoid it. If others want to hold hands, let them! Aint nothin wrong with emphasizing the fact of God being OUR Father.
They can simply hold out their hands and await a clasp, if they don’t receive a clasp…well then no big deal. This should never be offensive I don’t think.
I think if there were proper reverence in Mass, none of these issues would even be brought up.
haha we should be thinking about the Lord’s Goodness during Mass, and instead we worry about hand holding!
I like to think of the Novus Ordo (properly done) as silent communion with your brothers and sisters in adoration of God.
Silence tells much more than body language ever could anyway.
But then again, if a holy person were next to me at Mass, I’d sure wanna hold their hand
Ask Mary to take you by the hand! She will lead you to Jesus!

God Bless!
Mordocai