Holiday abortion debate with atheist in-laws

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So, I’m talking to my SIL over a game of cards during the holidays and it turns out that she had an abortion around fifteen years ago. My husband said he forgot about it. She had a tumor in her uterus and to take care of the tumor she had to kill the baby. If she had waited to take care of the tumor she’d risk her life as well as the baby’s. Of course, my husband says I think I know what I’d do but I’ve never been in that situation. I’m trying hard not to pass judgment on her because I think she probably was distressed about it, but now she’s atheist (I wonder if it had an impact on that decision…).
I was talking about it at work today and even my co-worker who’s a Baptist preacher said he thinks in some instances it okay :bigyikes: ! I don’t think it’s okay for any reason! Am I right?
It’s so depressing :crying: ! I just don’t understand how *anyone * can condone murder, least of all a minister.
 
I agree. it’s so sad to see some christians so misguided. ask your minister friend (not your sister in law because this would probably hurt her) give the minister this scenario;
you’re in a burning apartment building or house or whatever. no one else is there…or so you thought. you’re about to step onto the fire escape ladder and you hear a small child screaming for help. maybe even a baby. “oh no!” you say “somsone has left their child in this burning building! what do I do?” do you run to save him/her? eventhough you have to go through a burning hall and might die in the attempt? there is a window with a fire escape right next to where you are standing, you could leave and not bother with the child. I mean, there’s no reason for you both to die, right? or, do you pray to God for protection and rush down the hall and rescue the child with out any concearn for your own life?
Ask him that and see what he says.
 
According to the teachings of the Church your sil had the right to do what she did fifteen years ago because the killing of the child was a secondary effect of removing the tumor. This sort of procedure is permitted when abortion is not the direct intent of having it done, but rather to save the mother’s life by removing a tumor or the removing of a fallopian tube with a tubal pregnancy, etc.

From the CCC:
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
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You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.
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God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.
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A lot of people think that there are no circumstances under which an abortion can be performed that the Church allows, but that is not the case. So, you sil made a very hard decision that ought not to have driven her out of the Church, if she was a Catholic, or away from God. Maybe if you tell her this, it might help her return to the faith. That and your prayers for her, of course.
 
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Della:
According to the teachings of the Church your sil had the right to do what she did fifteen years ago because the killing of the child was a secondary effect of removing the tumor. This sort of procedure is permitted when abortion is not the direct intent of having it done, but rather to save the mother’s life by removing a tumor or the removing of a fallopian tube with a tubal pregnancy, etc.

From the CCC:

A lot of people think that there are no circumstances under which an abortion can be performed that the Church allows, but that is not the case. So, you sil made a very hard decision that ought not to have driven her out of the Church, if she was a Catholic, or away from God. Maybe if you tell her this, it might help her return to the faith. That and your prayers for her, of course.
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This was one of the things I was unsure about… exactly what instances are allowed and which ones aren’t. The preacher I work with said that he thinks it’s okay if the woman was raped, I don’t. In the case of the mother’s health, now I don’t know. In the case of the baby’s health, definately not.

My SIL will be whatever her husband is, in this case, atheist. All I can really do is pray for her.
 
This kind of question came up in confirmation class I was teaching last year.

I turned it around and asked the students, would you burn your brother/sister to death to save your life. They, of course all said no, I informed them that is exactly what the saline flush does to the unborn baby, it gives chemical burns.
 
Yes, intended abortion is always wrong. That does not mean we are not compassionate to a person in a horrible situation. Your sil was unwilling to risk her life for her unborn child. Her fear of death (the tumor) lead her to end her pregnancy. Very sad indeed.

Now let’s say she had tried some less dangerous treatments for her tumor and those had resulted in the loss of the baby via miscarriage or early labor - that is not abortion. It was not her intent to stop the life of her baby. Or let’s say she was in a car wreck (unconscience) and the drs. at the er didn’t see the fetus until they were emergency surgery when the baby had already died due the procedures. Again, that’s not an abortion because the intent was never to stop a life. See the difference?

Pray for your sil and her aborted baby and leave the rest to God.
 
Pray for your SIL and try to gently see if she’d be willing to attend a Rachel Vineyard retreat, if she feels inclined to go. Unfortunately, I’ve recently met some women that don’t think twice of their abortion(s) because of this reason your SIL used, therefore don’t feel guilty about it. So pray for her and hope the wall comes down to her atheism and she will soon realize God loves her and she can forgive herself… Who knows… her atheism might be an unconscious self defense mechanism of denial to avoid feeling the guilt. I’ll keep her in my prayers also.
 
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mjdonnelly:
This kind of question came up in confirmation class I was teaching last year.

I turned it around and asked the students, would you burn your brother/sister to death to save your life. They, of course all said no, I informed them that is exactly what the saline flush does to the unborn baby, it gives chemical burns.
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I don’t mean to sound so stupid, but how does a saline flush burn the baby? Is it more than just saline, or does saline cause a different reaction for a baby who’s not fully developed yet? I’m just asking because I don’t know how it works…
 
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RCCDefender:
. She had a tumor in her uterus and to take care of the tumor she had to kill the baby. If she had waited to take care of the tumor she’d risk her life as well as the baby’s. Of course, my husband says I think I know what I’d do but I’ve never been in that situation. .
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without knowing all the facts, it may have been morally licit to perform the surgery she required at the time. If the baby’s death was incidental to cancer surgery, rather than the direct result of an actual abortion procedure. You are right, we were not there, we cannot judge except by looking at objective moral teaching of the Church. We do not know what the doctors and pastoral counsellors told her at the time. We assume in Christian charity she made the best choice she could on the basis of her conscience. We also mourn with her on the loss of her baby.

Hopefully we will inform our own conscience on this topic (there are several threads and CA homepage articles and links). The life of St. Gianna is instructive here. She faced a similar dilemma, and the cancer surgery she needed would have been morally acceptable since it would not be the direct, but only the indirect, cause of the her baby’s death. Nonetheless she refused, delivered a healthy baby, and died of the effects of her cancer. That is heroic virtue, which is why she is a saint.

without knowing the context of your discussion, the fact that this came up may mean she has been thinking about it, and has some unresolved pain and sorrow about it. If so, and you think she would be receptive, you might make her aware of Rachel’s vineyard retreats.

another topic, given the title of the thread, is how do we respond as Christians when someone close to us reveals they have had an abortion, condoned an abortion, or are considering abortion. If the response is debate, recrimination, and condemnation, is that likely to lead to a conversion of heart and action in this matter?
 
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RCCDefender:
I don’t mean to sound so stupid, but how does a saline flush burn the baby? Is it more than just saline, or does saline cause a different reaction for a baby who’s not fully developed yet? I’m just asking because I don’t know how it works…
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I’ve been reading this article: pathlights.com/abortion/abort04.htm to try to get more information about how abortions are done. The only ones I had heard of before were the D&C and the suction ones. Apparently the saline flush uses a much different saline than I use for my contact lenses, correct? I’m sorry to sound so stupid, I just hadn’t heard of all the ways that abortionists murder babies…
 
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RCCDefender:
I’ve been reading this article: pathlights.com/abortion/abort04.htm to try to get more information about how abortions are done. The only ones I had heard of before were the D&C and the suction ones. Apparently the saline flush uses a much different saline than I use for my contact lenses, correct? I’m sorry to sound so stupid, I just hadn’t heard of all the ways that abortionists murder babies…
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Saline Flush aborttions are rarely, if ever perfromed anymore.
 
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RCCDefender:
I’ve been reading this article: pathlights.com/abortion/abort04.htm to try to get more information about how abortions are done. The only ones I had heard of before were the D&C and the suction ones. Apparently the saline flush uses a much different saline than I use for my contact lenses, correct? I’m sorry to sound so stupid, I just hadn’t heard of all the ways that abortionists murder babies…
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It is more of a “salt water” flush, than a saline flush. Alot more salt. Found about it on the priests for life website. It’s bad when you get salt into a cut on your hand, well, except it is over their entire body in the uterus.

Not sure how often this type is performed. In a way I don’t really want to know about any abortions, but to fight the enemy, you must learn their tactics.
 
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RCCDefender:
It’s so depressing :crying: ! I just don’t understand how *anyone * can condone murder, least of all a minister.
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I agree, I think she should have waited until she died to figure out if it was necessary, because then she wouldn’t have the death on her hands, they both would be dead and that is better than one of them living with an abortion on their shoulders.

Again, abortions should never be commited even if we have to go to war over it.

-Jeff
 
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mjdonnelly:
It is more of a “salt water” flush, than a saline flush. Alot more salt. Found about it on the priests for life website. It’s bad when you get salt into a cut on your hand, well, except it is over their entire body in the uterus.

Not sure how often this type is performed. In a way I don’t really want to know about any abortions, but to fight the enemy, you must learn their tactics.
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as one who counseled for years in a CPC I can tell you it is rarely used. one of the main reasons for it discontinuance was its tendency to result in live births of severely burned children
 
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zootjeff:
I agree, I think she should have waited until she died to figure out if it was necessary, because then she wouldn’t have the death on her hands, they both would be dead and that is better than one of them living with an abortion on their shoulders.

Again, abortions should never be commited even if we have to go to war over it. (and kill lots of people, because war is more like slaughter than murder, and slaughter is ok.)

-Jeff
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SueKrum:
I agree. it’s so sad to see some christians so misguided. ask your minister friend (not your sister in law because this would probably hurt her) give the minister this scenario;
you’re in a burning apartment building or house or whatever. no one else is there…or so you thought. you’re about to step onto the fire escape ladder and you hear a small child screaming for help. maybe even a baby. “oh no!” you say “somsone has left their child in this burning building! what do I do?” do you run to save him/her? eventhough you have to go through a burning hall and might die in the attempt? there is a window with a fire escape right next to where you are standing, you could leave and not bother with the child. I mean, there’s no reason for you both to die, right? or, do you pray to God for protection and rush down the hall and rescue the child with out any concearn for your own life?
Ask him that and see what he says.
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How many burns would you sustain to save some kids in Iraq? What if you know the kid was a gay athiest, would you still risk your life to save him? Somthing tells me you’d think twice.

Ask the same question where you know if you save the child you’d die. 98% chance of death is still some chance that you’d live right? If you go for it, you’ll prove Darwin right about survival of the fittest.

There is a 0.001% chance I’ll win the lottery, because I’m down on my luck, I’m going to sell the farm and buy lottery tickets because I have faith in God to make sure I win.

God values math, why don’t you.
 
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zootjeff:
How many burns would you sustain to save some kids in Iraq? What if you know the kid was a gay athiest, would you still risk your life to save him? Somthing tells me you’d think twice.

Ask the same question where you know if you save the child you’d die. 98% chance of death is still some chance that you’d live right? If you go for it, you’ll prove Darwin right about survival of the fittest.

There is a 0.001% chance I’ll win the lottery, because I’m down on my luck, I’m going to sell the farm and buy lottery tickets because I have faith in God to make sure I win.

God values math, why don’t you.
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The first sentence of you post is so far out of the bounds of cordial discussion i cant believe you said. It appears you are claiming anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot.

Can you give us any evience whatsoever that the poster you roplied to is bigoted against homosexuals or atheists?

On another note it is sad to see that the war in Iraq has so clouded some peoples thinking that they feel they must work it in to every post they make. I thought we were talking about Abortion? Surely you dont think there is a moral eqauivalency between 1.2 million Amercian Children deliberately killed every year and your perception that the poster does not care about Iraqi Children?
 
estesbob,
thanks for sticking up forme. I was very insulted by that reply. My point was that it sounded like the pastor said it’s okay to have an abortion if the mother’s life is at risk and I was saying, “would you risk your life to save a child/baby in a burning building?”
Our culture’s look on life is so very sad 😦
 
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SueKrum:
estesbob,
thanks for sticking up forme. I was very insulted by that reply. My point was that it sounded like the pastor said it’s okay to have an abortion if the mother’s life is at risk and I was saying, “would you risk your life to save a child/baby in a burning building?”
Our culture’s look on life is so very sad 😦
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And what that has to do with Iraqi children, Homosexuals or atheists is beyond me

But you know Sue we run into this a lot when advocating life. It is so hard for those who support abortion to defend the indefensible that the usual reaction is to change the subject.
 
All I was saying is that most of the people that support the outlawing all forms of abortion, even those required to save the mothers life, are the same people that support the war in Iraq even if it means 100,000 soldiers, insurgents, civilians, ect have to die.

And to me, that doesn’t seem right.
 
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