Holiness and Torment

[Goblin_Taters]

I’ve been thinking about this topic for a while. When a Catholic thinks of holiness, what pops up? Usually images of St. Francis, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ignatius of Loyola, and so on. Basically, one thinks of how these men and women had purged themselves of wordly wisdom and sought the wisdom of God. In the case of mystical saints, their holiness seems to come from the sense that they achieved mystical, intellectual union with God. Looking further back, one might see the impeturbable saints such as St. Benedict, who had so disciplined their lives that they could resist any temptation.

But is this really Christian holiness? I don’t know. What about the people who suffer from psychological disorders, depression, post traumatic stress syndrome, hallucinations, alcoholism, cutting, and so on? Or those people who have been so abused in life circumstances that they cannot recollect themselves to purge themselves of all that has happened to them? From the Catholic perspective, there seems an expectation of equanimity in the Catholic saints. The saints might have their flesh torn from them, might have their families slain before their eyes, but they themselves don’t suffer anything on the level of “insanity” or “traumatic experience.” Ok, maybe they have a “Dark Night of the Soul,” a “purgative trauma,” but they do not succumb to the mind-throttling experiences that millions of people, even Christians, suffer each day, and are permamently damaged by. And these harrowing experiences are irresistable: you cannot tell a woman who has been violated that she should simply forgive the perpetrator and continue living the Christian life. No, there are psychological consequences that alter how a person thinks and translates experiences.

And just when one is healing one trauma, another whacks the person over the head. St. Paul was rather chipper, always extoling God. But even he hinted of his own unbelief and sin working in him although he desired to do good. Is what Paul writes what truly went on in his mind and heart, or just one side of it?

When was the last time you read of a saint who sounded like a religious Franz Kafka, or a Nikolai Gogol, or even Fyodor Dostoevsky? Can they exist? Where are the broken down, mind-contorted, heart-wrenched saints who had mental breakdowns even after their deeper conversion to Christ? I know, I know: all this pain and suffering is only because such people are attached to the world! Right.

 

[TOP]

I’ve been thinking about this topic for a while. When a Catholic thinks of holiness, what pops up? Usually images of St. Francis, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ignatius of Loyola, and so on. Basically, one thinks of how these men and women had purged themselves of wordly wisdom and sought the wisdom of God. In the case of mystical saints, their holiness seems to come from the sense that they achieved mystical, intellectual union with God. Looking further back, one might see the impeturbable saints such as St. Benedict, who had so disciplined their lives that they could resist any temptation.

But is this really Christian holiness? I don’t know. What about the people who suffer from psychological disorders, depression, post traumatic stress syndrome, hallucinations, alcoholism, cutting, and so on? Or those people who have been so abused in life circumstances that they cannot recollect themselves to purge themselves of all that has happened to them? From the Catholic perspective, there seems an expectation of equanimity in the Catholic saints. The saints might have their flesh torn from them, might have their families slain before their eyes, but they themselves don’t suffer anything on the level of “insanity” or “traumatic experience.” Ok, maybe they have a “Dark Night of the Soul,” a “purgative trauma,” but they do not succumb to the mind-throttling experiences that millions of people, even Christians, suffer each day, and are permamently damaged by. And these harrowing experiences are irresistable: you cannot tell a woman who has been violated that she should simply forgive the perpetrator and continue living the Christian life. No, there are psychological consequences that alter how a person thinks and translates experiences.

And just when one is healing one trauma, another whacks the person over the head. St. Paul was rather chipper, always extoling God. But even he hinted of his own unbelief and sin working in him although he desired to do good. Is what Paul writes what truly went on in his mind and heart, or just one side of it?

When was the last time you read of a saint who sounded like a religious Franz Kafka, or a Nikolai Gogol, or even Fyodor Dostoevsky? Can they exist? Where are the broken down, mind-contorted, heart-wrenched saints who had mental breakdowns even after their deeper conversion to Christ? I know, I know: all this pain and suffering is only because such people are attached to the world! Right.

I believe the type of things you mentioned and the spiritual experience a connected. When I go through challenges, I try to find the “lesson” in it. It can really seem like tough love at times, but looking back, even though I am terribly saddened at times, would I change it? It’s not always self inflicted, sometimes it is meant to be an offering. It has taken me years to find out that answer sometimes. Interior sufferings are so personel and can be tough to make sense of. They seem very “deep” in nature and it can be tough to see the simple message in them. Comparing them to what others go through is only partially helpful. Ultimately, pondering the agony in the garden and the passion covers the interior struggle. The Lord is the one that has felt exactly what we feel. You have to find the connection and unite with it. Easier said then done. I hope this makes sense. I agree, the Lord likes our dependence on Him, not things of this world, but He trys to do it in a way that doesn’t harden our hearts. That can make it a painful process. But I know I am a better person for it. Tim

 

[CSN]

Joan of Arc was pretty off, from what I understand. Also, wasn’t there one saint who was like a feral child or something? Running around, ranting and raving.

I also heard that Saint John Bosco’s friends tried to get him into a mental hospital. He slammed the door on the carriage after they got in and he shooed the horses away, saying “Begone, ye knaves, who know not the powers that be.”

Actually, he didn’t say that, I made it up, but it sounds like something someone would say in the 1800’s

 

[TOP]

Joan of Arc was pretty off, from what I understand. Also, wasn’t there one saint who was like a feral child or something? Running around, ranting and raving.

I also heard that Saint John Bosco’s friends tried to get him into a mental hospital. He slammed the door on the carriage after they got in and he shooed the horses away, saying “Begone, ye knaves, who know not the powers that be.”

Actually, he didn’t say that, I made it up, but it sounds like something someone would say in the 1800’s

Had me laughing! I wish it was true ,I’d memorize it . Tim

 

[CSN]

I’ve been thinking about this topic for a while. When a Catholic thinks of holiness, what pops up? Usually images of St. Francis, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ignatius of Loyola, and so on. Basically, one thinks of how these men and women had purged themselves of wordly wisdom and sought the wisdom of God. In the case of mystical saints, their holiness seems to come from the sense that they achieved mystical, intellectual union with God. Looking further back, one might see the impeturbable saints such as St. Benedict, who had so disciplined their lives that they could resist any temptation.

But is this really Christian holiness? I don’t know. What about the people who suffer from psychological disorders, depression, post traumatic stress syndrome, hallucinations, alcoholism, cutting, and so on? Or those people who have been so abused in life circumstances that they cannot recollect themselves to purge themselves of all that has happened to them? From the Catholic perspective, there seems an expectation of equanimity in the Catholic saints. The saints might have their flesh torn from them, might have their families slain before their eyes, but they themselves don’t suffer anything on the level of “insanity” or “traumatic experience.” Ok, maybe they have a “Dark Night of the Soul,” a “purgative trauma,” but they do not succumb to the mind-throttling experiences that millions of people, even Christians, suffer each day, and are permamently damaged by. And these harrowing experiences are irresistable: you cannot tell a woman who has been violated that she should simply forgive the perpetrator and continue living the Christian life. No, there are psychological consequences that alter how a person thinks and translates experiences.

And just when one is healing one trauma, another whacks the person over the head. St. Paul was rather chipper, always extoling God. But even he hinted of his own unbelief and sin working in him although he desired to do good. Is what Paul writes what truly went on in his mind and heart, or just one side of it?

When was the last time you read of a saint who sounded like a religious Franz Kafka, or a Nikolai Gogol, or even Fyodor Dostoevsky? Can they exist? Where are the broken down, mind-contorted, heart-wrenched saints who had mental breakdowns even after their deeper conversion to Christ? I know, I know: all this pain and suffering is only because such people are attached to the world! Right.

Well, to be more serious, the reason saints are recognized as saints is because of their exemplary lives.

I just thought of another thing: I heard that Mother Teresa had to be exorcised near the end of her life because of tremendous doubts / fears that plagued her. Apparently some felt this was a reason not to choose her for sainthood, but if I remember correctly, JP II said this is precisely why she should be considered for sainthood, because she persevered despite her problems…

 

[water]

I don’t have much knowledge about this, but I am thinking that torment and suffering are not to determine Christian holiness of a Christian, but it is how he/she responds to the torment/suffering.

 

[TOP]

I don’t have much knowledge about this, but I am thinking that torment and suffering are not to determine Christian holiness of a Christian, but it is how he/she responds to the torment/suffering.

See, a simple “message”. Thanks Water, Tim