Holiness/seperation

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Also, thank you for your prayers. I don’t like the way my “tone” was in my previous post, so I just wanted to add a sincere thank you and an apology for my defensiveness. I’m not brushing off anyone’s advice - I do appreciate all of it, and I’m still considering much of what’s been said.

Peace to you also

 

[Em_in_FL]

I’m not talking about actually leaving my husband or family. I am talking about teaching my children what is *real *joy and how to really celebrate life. I think many of the things the world does is vain and does nothing to further the kingdom. And if my husband is not on board with that, then he will continue to teach him what he does *through *what he does. I cannot in good conscience join him.

I think it’s a shame that people believe those things are how to celebrate life. There is far more celebration of life in doing useful things for others. Think the beatitudes.

Yes, but remember it IS possible to “live in the world, but not of the world”… it IS possible.

Just don’t close the door on that possibility later in your life…

I do understand where you are now… really wanting to escape from the evils of the world. You have married a person who does not view his actions in the light of morality. That must be very very painful.
Pray for his conversion. You can’t tell God exactly what to do… He works in ways we will NEVER understand, but He DOES listen to our prayers.

From Jeremiah 29:11-14

For I know well the plans I have in mind for you, says the LORD, plans for your welfare, not for woe! plans to give you a future full of hope. When you call me, when you go to pray to me, I will listen to you. When you look for me, you will find me. Yes, when you seek me with all your heart, you will find me with you, says the LORD, and I will change your lot;

Your “lot” in life is dynamic…
Be open to his conversion… be open to the possibility that living IN the world does not mean you have to live OF the world…

God bless…

 

[YinYangMom]

I just wanted to point something out: The point I was trying to make, in citing all the scriptures in my post (#12), was that it isn’t underlying selfish motives that are behind my desire to separate. It is precisely because of my selfish motives that I continue to do the things he wants me to; b/c it is easier to just keep doing them and keep peace with him. And if it was self-serving motives, I would not be concerned with how continuing to run with the world at his pace is affecting his salvation.

Ok, I’m getting a better picture now…thanks again for being patient enough to keep explaining.

I highlighted the part which may help…try doing them not just to keep the peace with him but as building blocks for the bridge you are trying to build to lead him to heaven. You’re already on the path to holiness because, as you noted, you’re already very much aware of what God wants from **all **his people (not just you)…so now it’s a matter of using those things/activities your husband enjoys as a means to raising his spirit.

It is b/c of the scriptures I cited that I’ve been exploring why it is that priests think I shouldn’t resist running with the world (the way my husband wants me to), when it seems very clear to me (through Scripture) that God wants me to. It’s not about selfish desire, but my desire to do the will of God. I am not chasing after “feeling closer to God” - I’ve learned not to rely on that. I am longing for the peace that comes through doing the will of God, and I believe this is a clear command by Him to separate

.

Ok, also good to know and helpful for me to understand.
Here’s the thing, though, this ‘clear command’ you feel to separate can’t be coming from God. Be careful about that.
The reason is can’t be His will for you is because you are married. What’s done is done. It can’t be undone. Man (including you) cannot put asunder that which God bound.

So rethink that will of God for you…If you start from the premise that God’s will is for you to honor your marriage, then you will find a way to walk down that path toward Him…and bring your husband along.

My second point was that religious do it, and that is acceptable, but it is somehow not acceptable for me. I don’t feel like I am doing God’s will.

And I explained that in depth earlier. The marriage covenant prohibits you from separating yourself from your husband and his world but rather calls you to bring him out of those things which are not good for his soul. You can’t abandon his soul to fend for itself for he is now part of you.

The reason you don’t feel you are doing God’s will is because you aren’t, if you think about it. It’s just that you think you feel out of sorts because you continue to live in your husband’s world to keep the peace, when the more probable reason is because you haven’t figured out yet how to use your husband’s world to bring him to God. You still see everythign about his world as temptations instead of as tools and resources.

I am just trying to reconcile what I see in Scripture with Catholic practice. As I see it, it is primarily the religious orders which keep God’s commands about separation and non-conformity, and the laity are left to somehow “be in the world and not of it”, while flirting with all the world has to offer and still expect to be in God’s favor in the end.

Perhaps you should focus your scripture study on passages addressed to husbands and wives, and not so much on those for single people.

I don’t see ‘being in the world’ as ‘flirting with it’. Everything in the world is good because it came from God. We Christians have to learn how to see everything of the world through Jesus’ eyes. He walked on the earth. There were loads of sinners all around Him and yet He didn’t retreat and stay only with the ‘holy people’, did He? No, he ate, drank, slept among sinners and while doing so taught them how to really appreciate food, drink, and rest - the way His Father intended, not the way Man abused. That’s why it’s very important for Jesus’ ministry (the laity) to continue living in the world which has become distorted. We help others learn to see things from God’s point of view.

God needs us to help show the people the proper way to enjoy His gifts. The real challenge is in learning how to do so ourselves. When we can finally appreciate tasteful clothing in wonderful colors, fabrics, textures, and the accessorie which go with it (crafted by talented people God gave the talent to) for the good things about life God granted to us, then we can help others do the same, but while you still struggle with seeing the good in all those things it makes sense that you still view them as temptations and thus ‘bad’ things which are to be avoided. It’s not that we are to avoid, but to use properly.

 

[YinYangMom]

I’ve refreshed my memory more about other verses that pertain to this in my devotions the past few days. In particular, the parable in Mark 12 strikes a cord with me when considered with Mark 13-Jesus’s command to not be “sleeping” and to “watch”.

I don’t know about you, but when my time comes, or when Jesus comes again, I don’t want to be sitting in a movie theater or playing mini-golf. I don’t want to squander any of my time here on vain recreations. Furthermore, I receive more joy from furthering the kingdom through acts of mercy and charity.

Jesus enjoyed a good wedding party and the fellowship of family at friends over a satisfying meal, storytelling and laughter.

You honestly believe the Mark 13 passage means if you die while in a movie theater God will consider you one of the ‘sleeping’? From what I can gather you are so in tune with what God wants and you have such a strong desire to please Him, as well as a healthy fear of the Lord, that that is the watchfulness the passage is referring to. Your heart and soul are mindful of the second coming even when you’re mini-golfing or shopping or watching a movie or dancing.

I don’t know. The more I think about it, and the more I read Scripture, I believe it is God’s will. Jesus did not come to sow peace, but rather discord between a husband and wife, etc… I believe this is just one of those ways.

The discord between the husband and wife is the means by which the righteous party is to bring the other to Christ - through our love, our charity, our patience, our kindness, our prayers.

I’m not talking about actually leaving my husband or family. I am talking about teaching my children what is *real *joy and how to really celebrate life. I think many of the things the world does is vain and does nothing to further the kingdom. And if my husband is not on board with that, then he will continue to teach him what he does *through *what he does. I cannot in good conscience join him.

I kinda figured you weren’t planning on leaving the family or anything that drastic. I gathered your struggle is more about living in that environment. My point was that emotionally and spiritually leaving your husband behind is the same, in God’s eyes, as physically leaving him. It’s still a breaking of the marriage vows, and that’s why you have to find another way to bring your family together in harmony even with a non-believing husband. It is possible. I know many, many families in similar situations who have done a wonderful job raising really strong Catholic children with a non-believing spouse. And I’ve seen really, really devout parents raise children who turn away from the faith.

All I really know is that raising children to know God and to love Him is difficult at best…getting them to want to serve God above themselves and worldy things is even harder. But believing in the graces we received in the sacrament of marriage, the graces the kids received in baptism and the eucharist and believing in the graces I receive through adoration, confession, mass, eucharist makes it possible for me to face each day with Him and together we get through to the kids. Certainly I don’t do it myself, and it isn’t because of the help or no help I get from my husband…it’s just that I’m never alone and that’s why it works and that’s why it isn’t as painful as it would appear to be.

I think it’s a shame that people believe those things are how to celebrate life. There is far more celebration of life in doing useful things for others. Think the beatitudes.

Balance. It’s a matter of balance. Does it really say in scripture that we are to work and not play? Are we not allowed to enjoy ourselves during our ‘down’ time from our labors? How can we praise God for all His wonderful creations of art, music, poetry, books, movies if we don’t see, read or hear them? If a person has the talent to create a sculpture or painting which moves our soul to appreciate the wonder of God - is that not God working through that artist? Could it not be that the work was inspired by the Spirit to reach people like you and me? Same with a good novel, a good score, a good movie (and there are some)…It’s quite possible God is trying to reach His people by moving those artists to produce those works.

 

[Lindathirdorder]

WOW!
This is a long thread. Joytobecatholic you have your work cut out for you. I too was in this situation seven years ago. I am like one of those children that needs those little plastic inserts in the outlets or she gets electricuted. I realized that I must be obedient to my husband because that is what His Will is for me, but, not if it was to cause me too sin. If my husband was to want to go somewhere that I felt inappropriate I would suggest we go out alone or with the kids instead. I was in many arguments with my sister for instance that I dressed like a granny. Actually, I am a grandmother now of a 2 year old. She is one year younger and she says “I want to be a cookie, not a grammy”.
Well now my husband has grown in the faith and so have my children but it was alot of sacrificing on my part. I prayed alot interiorly and knowing I was in the presence of God that sustained me. When out dancing I sang all the songs to the Lord and offered it to him as a sacrifice because I didn’t want to be there at all.
I know that your feeling separated from God is because you are feeling separated from your husband. It wasn’t until I worked at being more loving to my husband that brought him closer to the Lord. Now he even goes to adoration with me. He says the rosary with me. And he is very virtuous.
We need to be leaven in the world that has lost its faith.
Now I am finding that I love the new styles the young kids are wearing. Actually they are the styles I wore as a kid and frankly I feel more comfortable in them then the granny clothes. My children have actually started to dress me in more up to date clothing. I love those short skirts they wear now, but with the leggens. Remember! the leggens. I can feel good in the clothes now because I know that my husband and kids love to be with me. And this week I even promised my daughter that I would go to Kareokee with her and her friends to sing. I really don’t want to go but it seems to mean so much too her and she has been telling all her friends. I know that God will build some precious memories on Thursday Night! God wants us to enjoy life, music, dancing and all the things of creation. If we want to find God then we must look in the things he has created. And what marvelous things he has created.
Many blessings to all of you.
Just felt I wanted to let you know that I have been where you are at in my spiritual journey and God will help you “together” get through this.
Linda

 

[Prometheum_x]

The primary issue is the condition of your heart. It is one thing to be separated from a thing externally; it is an entirely different thing to be separated from it in the heart. It is possible for a poor man to have more greed in his heart than a rich man.

You can do many different earthly things (worldly is not a good term, since it calls to mind our 3 enemies: the world, the flesh and the devil) for and with your husband and be completely separated from them in your heart, provided that you do them not for their sake, but out of love for God. Having this love for God also means that you have love for your husband, for you want him to draw close to God too.

God desires that all people might be holy. It is only by his grace that we can be holy – the Virgin Mary herself is described as “full of grace”. He will give you the grace to become holy in your vocation in life, because he wants you to be holy far more than you do. That is, after all, why the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

I would recommend reading the book “The Fire Within” by Fr. Thomas Dubay, S.M. I just bought it recently because it was highly recommended by many people I know here at my church, and it has a wonderful section on *detachment, *as taught by St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila.

I don’t remember the publisher (I don’t have the book with me right now), but it was less than $20 at my local Catholic bookstore.

May God richly bless you and keep you as you seek his face.