Holy Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East

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Dear friends,

these people are calling themselves Catholic but as far as I am aware they do not follow the Pope (HOLY Father) and their priests marry.

Dont get me wrong I myself am assyrian, its just Im getting some stick on facebook for trying to reunite the two churches.

I think the dispute goes back to nestorianism, council of Ephesus 431. A.D. when the Assyrians broke away and have been seperate from Rome for 1600 years. the Chaldeans came back in the 16th CE.

but can someone tell me whether the Assyrian Church of the East is actually Catholic?

Are they protestant? I dont know what bible they use either.

thanks
 
dooman said:
Dear friends,

these people are calling themselves Catholic but as far as I am aware they do not follow the Pope (HOLY Father) and their priests marry.

Dont get me wrong I myself am assyrian, its just Im getting some stick on facebook for trying to reunite the two churches.

I think the dispute goes back to nestorianism, council of Ephesus 431. A.D. when the Assyrians broke away and have been seperate from Rome for 1600 years. the Chaldeans came back in the 16th CE.

but can someone tell me whether the Assyrian Church of the East is actually Catholic?

Are they protestant? I dont know what bible they use either.

thanks
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The Assyrian Church of the East isn’t part of the Roman Catholic Church, but I think there is a smaller institution called the Chaldean Catholic Church that is in communion with the Pope and is followed by many Assyrians.
 
dooman said:
these people are calling themselves Catholic but as far as I am aware they do not follow the Pope (HOLY Father) and their priests marry.
Click to expand...
I am not 100% sure, but I think the ACOE follows the same tradition as the other Apostolic Churches. Theirs, like ours, do not marry. Rather, their priest ARE married. The general rule is that a married man can be a priest, but an unmarried priest cannot marry.

To repeat, I’m not 100% sure as far as the ACOE is concerned.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
thanks everyone you hit the nail on the head… very precise information.
I thank God for you.

God bless

Mark
 
ACOE are Nestorians I think. Nothing wrong with married priests.
 
Note that the Catholic Church today is not the sole Church to use the term Catholic on itself. Remember that all Apostolic Churches were united at one point in history. So everyone is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. So the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, are all Catholic Churches. Of course today we see Catholics as those in communion with Rome. But there was a time when all Churches were united. So in a sense, the Assyrians are Catholic, being an Apostolic Church.
 
Constantine is right - the Roman Catholic Church is only one among many that uses “Catholic” and has no monopoly on the term (“Catholic” comes from the Greek and originally means that the whole of the reality of the Church is present in the part when that part has a bishop, valid Sacraments, Apostolic faith etc. It later came to mean “universal.”).

The Assyrian Church has been accused of being Nestorian but with better historical insight nowadays, we know that it is not Nestorian and in fact repudiates Nestorianism. (Historians today say that Nestorius himself was not Nestorian either or at least that is the working hypothesis. . . ). It recently signed a Christological agreement with the Roman Catholic Church so there is now no difference on the score of Christology between the two Churches.

This Church has valid Sacraments, married priests and very interesting traditions. For example, they believe that with every “batch” of dough from which they make Communion Bread, there is a portion that is ultimately descended from the first batch made for the Last Supper . . . They always set aside a small portion of dough for the next Qurbana or Divine Liturgy.

The Assyrians have no icons, and in fact, when Protestant archaeologists discovered them in the 19th century, they thought they had discovered an “Eastern Protestant” church or even the original forebears of the “true faith” which was Protestant.

In fact, the Assyrians do venerate highly the Cross which they kiss reverently, and also the relics of the Saints (they commemorate their Martyrs only on Fridays). Chaldeans, the Assyrian Rite Catholics, do indeed venerate religious images.

They call their priests “Rabbi” (Rabban) and otherwise have Judaic elements in their worship, much like the Ethiopians.

I believe there is at least one remaining Assyrian monastery left (If I’m wrong, please correct me!).

The Assyrian monastics divide the book of Psalms into 21 sections or “Marmitha” and each Marmitha has three “Hullala” much like the Byzantine Psalter division.

They have seven services daily at which they recite 3 Marmitha of the Psalter and so recite the entire psalter daily.

Alex
 
Alexander_Roman said:
The Assyrians have no icons, and in fact, when Protestant archaeologists discovered them in the 19th century, they thought they had discovered an “Eastern Protestant” church or even the original forebears of the “true faith” which was Protestant.

Alex
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actually the term Assyrian were given to this church(Church of the east) by Anglicans…

In 1610,Patriarch Eliya VIII(Assyrian Church of the east not in communion with holly See) entered communion with the Catholic Church. This created a situation in which there are two rival claimants approved by Rome(One Chaldean &Assyrian), in one See. He died however in 1617 and his successor quickly repudiated the union.:(😦
 
Alexander_Roman said:
Constantine is right - the Roman Catholic Church is only one among many that uses “Catholic” and has no monopoly on the term (“Catholic” comes from the Greek and originally means that the whole of the reality of the Church is present in the part when that part has a bishop, valid Sacraments, Apostolic faith etc. It later came to mean “universal.”).

The Assyrian Church has been accused of being Nestorian but with better historical insight nowadays, we know that it is not Nestorian and in fact repudiates Nestorianism. (Historians today say that Nestorius himself was not Nestorian either or at least that is the working hypothesis. . . ). It recently signed a Christological agreement with the Roman Catholic Church so there is now no difference on the score of Christology between the two Churches.

This Church has valid Sacraments, married priests and very interesting traditions. For example, they believe that with every “batch” of dough from which they make Communion Bread, there is a portion that is ultimately descended from the first batch made for the Last Supper . . . They always set aside a small portion of dough for the next Qurbana or Divine Liturgy.

The Assyrians have no icons, and in fact, when Protestant archaeologists discovered them in the 19th century, they thought they had discovered an “Eastern Protestant” church or even the original forebears of the “true faith” which was Protestant.

In fact, the Assyrians do venerate highly the Cross which they kiss reverently, and also the relics of the Saints (they commemorate their Martyrs only on Fridays). Chaldeans, the Assyrian Rite Catholics, do indeed venerate religious images.

They call their priests “Rabbi” (Rabban) and otherwise have Judaic elements in their worship, much like the Ethiopians.

I believe there is at least one remaining Assyrian monastery left (If I’m wrong, please correct me!).

The Assyrian monastics divide the book of Psalms into 21 sections or “Marmitha” and each Marmitha has three “Hullala” much like the Byzantine Psalter division.

They have seven services daily at which they recite 3 Marmitha of the Psalter and so recite the entire psalter daily.

Alex
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Thank you Alex. I continue to learn so much from your posts
 
They have an interesting history. A bishop named “A-lo-pen” was the first to evangelize China, leading to the expansion of the Assyrian Church to a huge body of believers extending from Syria to China, and from Sri Lanka to Kazakhstan. In China they built temples and pagodas, and write sutras (named the “Jesus Sutras”, under which title they were translated into English), establishing a presence that was still strong in the late middle ages. Kublai Khan, whose mother and sister were Christian, sent two of his monks to the West to arrange a political alliance with the Pope. One of them, Mar Yabh-Allaha, was detained by his elevation to the seat of Catholicos of All the East, while his companion Rabban Sawma met the Pope, gave his creed which was deemed Orthodox, celebrated Liturgy in St. Peter’s Basilica, and effectively ended whatever de facto schism existed. (The Pope sent the pallium to Mar Yabh-Allaha; Yabh-Allaha himself gave a profession of faith to a Dominican mendicant to send to the Pope.) The Syriac account of the events was translated by Sir E. A. Wallis Budge under the title “The Monks of Kublai Khan”.

The schism dates back to the 16th century in a disputed election of a new catholicos. According to the old Catholic Encyclopedia, it was the anti-synod that appealed to Rome for consecration and the legitimate catholicos who broke communion with Rome; eventually however the schismatic line ended up in communion with Rome (as the Chaldean Catholic Church) and the dissenting line of bishops ended up not in communion with Rome (as the Assyrian Church of the East). Today, the Chaldean body is about three times the size of the ACOE.

Though they venerate the “Blessed Nestorius”, they do not in fact hold to the Nestorian heresy (and some deny that Nestorius ever did), and probably never did in the past. One Assyrian priest once told me that “we were never Nestorian; we just never attended your councils because we were stuck up here in the mountains and consequently never thought it was any of our business to ‘accept’ or ‘reject’ them.” Historians are in agreement that their label of “Nestorianism” was adopted for political motivations - since they were in the Sassanid Persian Empire which was the enemy of Rome, they would be suspected of treason if they practiced the Roman religion, so they rallied under the banner of a heresy condemned in the Roman Empire.
 
@ All can you use “Church of the East” Instead of “Assyrian church”…for the undivided east Syrian church:)
Cecilianus said:
Kublai Khan, whose mother and sister were Christian, sent two of his monks to the West to arrange a political alliance with the Pope. One of them, Mar Yabh-Allaha, was detained by his elevation to the seat of Catholicos of All the East, while his companion Rabban Sawma met the Pope, gave his creed which was deemed Orthodox, celebrated Liturgy in St. Peter’s Basilica, and effectively ended whatever de facto schism existed. (The Pope sent the pallium to Mar Yabh-Allaha; Yabh-Allaha himself gave a profession of faith to a Dominican mendicant to send to the Pope.) The Syriac account of the events was translated by Sir E. A. Wallis Budge under the title “The Monks of Kublai Khan”.
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**Yahballaha III (AD 1245–1317)-Patriarch of undivided church of the east. **

Yahballaha held contacts with the Byzantine Empire and with Latin Christendom. In 1287, when Abaqa’s son and successor Arghun Khan sought an ambassador for an important mission to Europe, Yaballaha recommended his former teacher Rabban Bar Sauma, who held the position of Visitor-General. Arghun agreed, and Bar Sauma made a historic journey through Europe, meeting with the Pope and many monarchs, and bringing gifts, letters, and European ambassadors on his return. Via Rabban Sauma, Yahballaha received a ring from the Pope’s finger, and a papal bull which recognized Yahballaha as the patriarch of all the eastern Christians(East syrian?)…

**In May 1304, Yahballaha made profession of the Catholic faith in a letter addressed to Pope Benedict XI. But the union was refuted by some bishops.
**

Mar Yacob (AD 1281 to 1317, Kodungalloor) The metropolitan and the gate of all India.

The dating formula in the colophon to a manuscript copied in June 1301 in the church of Mar Quriaqos(Kuriakos sahadha) in Cranganore(Kerala,India) mentions the patriarch Yahballaha III , and the metropolitan Ya-qob of India. Cranganore, described in this manuscript as ‘the royal city’, was doubtless the metropolitan seat for India at this time.

More about Yahballaha_III(Yahballaha III (1245–1317), known in earlier years as Rabban Marcos was born near Beijing (Khanbaliq, or Taitu))

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahballaha_III
 
dooman said:
but can someone tell me whether the Assyrian Church of the East is actually Catholic?

Are they protestant? I dont know what bible they use either.
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Actually, they are neither, yes neither. The Assyrian Church of the East is its own category of Christianity, just like Eastern Orthodoxy. Christian denominations are divided into several categories.


  1. *]Catholic Churches, which are in communion with Rome
    *]Protestants (this includes Non-Denominational Christians, ironically)
    *]Eastern Orthodox Churches
    *]Oriental Orthodox Churches
    *]Assyrian Church of the East
    *]Some people say Anglicans are a category of their own, being a mix of Catholic and Protestant but some people say they’re either one or the other…🤷

    However, Assyrians say they are “Catholic” as in “universal”, as in the context of the only, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church. They don’t mean “Catholic” as in “in communion with Rome”

    God bless :byzsoc:

    David
 
thanks David and everyone who has posted, all very interesting.

I just wanted to add. I asked my friend who attends ACOE in the Uk two questions which typically define what it means to be Catholic:

Do you follow the HOLY Father? answer : No.

Does the Church encourage its goers to pray the Rosary? Answer : No.

These are defining Characteristics of what it means to be a Catholic Church Today as defined by the Church. Christology isnt the issue, Mariology is.

They fail on two out of three criteria. This is sad.

But I did hear their leader visits the Pope. Im not sure the significance of this, if he finallly unites the Church under him to the Seat of Peter then his visit will be worth it. Can you please pray for this? I know I will.

It makes me sad, but I shall endeavour to spread the Good news of Jesus Christ as professed by Matt 16 to my countrymen.

Also I hear that the Church of the East goes back before the Roman Church to A.D. 30-35. Can anyone verify this for me? I hear Rome CC Started 45-55 A.D. Can anyone verify this for me also? Surely they were united at this point. Then we get to the council of Ephesus where there is a break up. as recorded by wikipedia.

Lets get the Assyrians praying the Rosary and following the Holy Father. The way it should be. Jesus said , " You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my community." Matt 16:18.
 
dooman said:
thanks David and everyone who has posted, all very interesting.

I just wanted to add. I asked my friend who attends ACOE in the Uk two questions which typically define what it means to be Catholic:

Do you follow the HOLY Father? answer : No.

Does the Church encourage its goers to pray the Rosary? Answer : No.

These are defining Characteristics of what it means to be a Catholic Church Today as defined by the Church. Christology isnt the issue, Mariology is.

They fail on two out of three criteria. This is sad.

But I did hear their leader visits the Pope. Im not sure the significance of this, if he finallly unites the Church under him to the Seat of Peter then his visit will be worth it. Can you please pray for this? I know I will.

It makes me sad, but I shall endeavour to spread the Good news of Jesus Christ as professed by Matt 16 to my countrymen.

Also I hear that the Church of the East goes back before the Roman Church to A.D. 30-35. Can anyone verify this for me? I hear Rome CC Started 45-55 A.D. Can anyone verify this for me also? Surely they were united at this point. Then we get to the council of Ephesus where there is a break up. as recorded by wikipedia.

Lets get the Assyrians praying the Rosary and following the Holy Father. The way it should be. Jesus said , " You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my community." Matt 16:18.
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Dooman,
While the Rosary is a wonderful and powerful prayer, it is not a “defining” element of the Catholicity of a Church. Central to Catholic worship is the celebration of the eucharist (for Latin Catholics, the mass, and for Eastern/Oriental Catholics the various divine liturgies of their respective rites) - not the praying of the Rosary. The Rosary, as popular and commendable a prayer as it is, remains a private devotion and not part of the Church’s public liturgy (corporate worship). While there is an ancient Eastern form of the Rosary, there are many other venerable devotions to the Mother of God found in the East and Orient - you should not limit Marian devotion to the Rosary. The Assyrian Church of the East, unless I am much mistake, does honor and invoke the intercession of Our Lady even if they do so in a way foreign to the average Latin Catholic. Keep in mind that even in our own Latin Church, the Rosary in its present form did not exist until the later medieval period. Sadly, the Assyrians are not in communion with the Pope of Rome and are thus, at this time, not part of the Catholic Church - but they do have a valid priesthood and eucharist and do honor the Blessed Mother and the saints. The Chaldean Catholic Church possesses the same spiritual and liturgical patrimony of the Assyrians and is in full communion with Rome. I agree that we should pray for reconciliation between the Assyrians (non-Catholics) and the Chaldeans (Catholics), but lets not create barriers that aren’t there.
For your information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Catholic_Church
 
dooman said:
thanks David and everyone who has posted, all very interesting.

I just wanted to add. I asked my friend who attends ACOE in the Uk two questions which typically define what it means to be Catholic:

Do you follow the HOLY Father? answer : No.

Does the Church encourage its goers to pray the Rosary? Answer : No.

These are defining Characteristics of what it means to be a Catholic Church Today as defined by the Church. Christology isnt the issue, Mariology is.

They fail on two out of three criteria. This is sad.

But I did hear their leader visits the Pope. Im not sure the significance of this, if he finallly unites the Church under him to the Seat of Peter then his visit will be worth it. Can you please pray for this? I know I will.

It makes me sad, but I shall endeavour to spread the Good news of Jesus Christ as professed by Matt 16 to my countrymen.

Also I hear that the Church of the East goes back before the Roman Church to A.D. 30-35. Can anyone verify this for me? I hear Rome CC Started 45-55 A.D. Can anyone verify this for me also? Surely they were united at this point. Then we get to the council of Ephesus where there is a break up. as recorded by wikipedia.

Lets get the Assyrians praying the Rosary and following the Holy Father. The way it should be. Jesus said , " You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my community." Matt 16:18.
Click to expand...
Greek Catholics don’t pray the Rosary. You shouldn’t try to bring them to union with Rome by imposing Latinizations on them.
 
dooman said:
Dear friends,

these people are calling themselves Catholic but as far as I am aware they do not follow the Pope (HOLY Father) and their priests marry.

Dont get me wrong I myself am assyrian, its just Im getting some stick on facebook for trying to reunite the two churches.

I think the dispute goes back to nestorianism, council of Ephesus 431. A.D. when the Assyrians broke away and have been seperate from Rome for 1600 years. the Chaldeans came back in the 16th CE.

but can someone tell me whether the Assyrian Church of the East is actually Catholic?

Are they protestant? I dont know what bible they use either.

thanks
Click to expand...
They are Catholic but not in communion with Rome, they are wholly Catholic as there Mass/Divine Liturgy/Eucharist is wholly valid, as their Holy Orders are valid, so their consecration of the Holy Eucharist is valid, and therefore they are Catholic in that sense.

If you mean Catholic as in the Catholic Church in communion with the Holy Father then they are not Catholic, but they are part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, same as the Eastern Orthodox.
 
Cecilianus said:
Greek Catholics don’t pray the Rosary. You shouldn’t try to bring them to union with Rome by imposing Latinizations on them.
Click to expand...
There is the prayer rule of the Theotokos 😉

But you are right though, traditionally the Rosary is not something that is encouraged as a devotion on Byzantine Catholics. We can pray it as a private devotion, or even as something given by a Spiritual Father or Mother.
 
dooman said:
thanks David and everyone who has posted, all very interesting.

I just wanted to add. I asked my friend who attends ACOE in the Uk two questions which typically define what it means to be Catholic:

Do you follow the HOLY Father? answer : No.

Does the Church encourage its goers to pray the Rosary? Answer : No.

These are defining Characteristics of what it means to be a Catholic Church Today as defined by the Church. Christology isnt the issue, Mariology is.

They fail on two out of three criteria. This is sad.

But I did hear their leader visits the Pope. Im not sure the significance of this, if he finallly unites the Church under him to the Seat of Peter then his visit will be worth it. Can you please pray for this? I know I will.

It makes me sad, but I shall endeavour to spread the Good news of Jesus Christ as professed by Matt 16 to my countrymen.

Also I hear that the Church of the East goes back before the Roman Church to A.D. 30-35. Can anyone verify this for me? I hear Rome CC Started 45-55 A.D. Can anyone verify this for me also? Surely they were united at this point. Then we get to the council of Ephesus where there is a break up. as recorded by wikipedia.

Lets get the Assyrians praying the Rosary and following the Holy Father. The way it should be. Jesus said , " You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my community." Matt 16:18.
Click to expand...
Actually, I’ve met more “anti-Rosary” views from Latin Catholics than Eastern Christians. My time in a Catholic high school was the worst of all in this respect.

But, in fact, the Assyrian monks have always had the practice of the Rosary, meaning the recitation of 150 Hail Mary’s or more on their prayer beads. It isn’t popular among the laity, but no one is preventing them from praying it.

So it is just not true that the Assyrians don’t have this practice. It IS true there are many Latin Catholics who sport rosaries in their rear-view mirror et al. but who don’t say it.

I once visited an Armenian Orthodox Church and as I went through the parking lot, I saw that EVERY car (because, out of curiosity, I went up and down every row of cars to check up on this) had a Latin-style rosary on their rear-view mirror and that individual Armenians did say it. Armenian Orthodox I know have always had great esteem for Pope John Paul II who had a large statue of St Gregory the Armenian installed at the Vatican in honour of their 1700 anniversary of Christianity, for one thing.

I know Coptic Orthodox who have similar esteem for that Pope and so on.

In fact, unless a Latin Catholic I know is a member of a Fatima or traditional group (but not “too traditionalist”), the pope just never comes up in conversation . . .

You Latin Catholics have a very wide field of evangelistic work to do among your own right here in North America.

If you asked me, which you didn’t . . .😉

As for Mariology, then the Assyrian Church is VERY devoted to the Mother of our Lord. Their liturgy invokes her as often as God is invoked. In fact, their liturgical prayers to the Most Holy Virgin Mary outstrips the devotion of the Western Church in that respect.

They don’t need, in the final analysis, to rely on a paraliturgical devotion, namely the Most Holy Rosary, to express their tremendous love and veneration for the Virgin Mary and Mother of Christ.

Alex
 
ConstantineTG said:
There is the prayer rule of the Theotokos 😉

But you are right though, traditionally the Rosary is not something that is encouraged as a devotion on Byzantine Catholics. We can pray it as a private devotion, or even as something given by a Spiritual Father or Mother.
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Yes, the Rosary is very popular among Greek-Catholics of Eastern Europe, as it was for our Greek-Catholic New Martyrs and Confessors under the Soviet yoke.

Russian Orthodox esteem the Rule of the Most Holy Theotokos and it is written up in the “Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy” 2003 published by the Moscow Patriarchate.

All tourists and pilgrims to Diveyevo, a monastic community for nuns who had St Seraphim of Sarov as their spiritual Father, will walk the path along a ditch that goes around the monastery, praying the 150 Hail Mary’s of the Rule of the Theotokos. The nuns go in procession daily along this ditch to pray the 150 Hail Mary’s and on feastdays, they actually SING the Hail Mary’s!

I have written an Akathist to the Mother of God based on the mysteries of the Rosary. I was actually attacked by a Russian Orthodox professor in Moscow for promoting the “Rozariy” and when I pointed out the Rule of the Theotokos, with sources, to him, he seemed to be unaware of this or else didn’t want to be aware of this.

Eastern Catholics especially shouldn’t try to be more “Orthodox than the Orthodox” on a number of scores!

🙂

Alex
 
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