Holy Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East

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Nice pictures!

Is that Mar Emmanuel III Delly in the picture?

When was this taken?
The first photo is, I believe, of Mar Dinkha IV of the ACoE, but the second photo is with Mar Emmanuel. I can’t say for sure, but the second photo may be from last year’s “special Synod for the Middle East” since I also see Mar Nasrallah Sfeir and Mar Gregorios III Laham.
 
It has been too long since I have visited the forums in detail. I am glad to see some of my old friends still posting. 🙂 Greetings.

Some clarifications:
The Assyrians have no icons…
This is sadly true to date, but the history and the liturgy is different.

Historically, you have Church of the East bishops and theologians mentioning and defending the veneration of Icons. This apologetic material fades out about the time that the Church is heavily persecuted and survives by having fled into the refuge of the mountains. And that time also marks when the Church started to become nepotic again, at first the patriarchal see being handed down within the family, soon followed by others.

Liturgically, there are many instances in our rites {and the existing commentaries of them} where icons are mentioned. In fact, one is supposed to be on the altar with a cross and a gospel. There’s other instances like in the baptism rite when a godparent is not present.

The fact is that historical persecution made the church not use icons, but before that devastation, there were statues in the churches in Seleucia-Ctesiphon, and icons, and paintings in gospels {Rabbula’s}.
 
That their Chaldean Catholic descendents have an extremely limited (and chiefly recent) usage of iconography - and more so of statuary - is a result of latinizing influences on their Church.
Although latinization has taken place, I think it has to do more with the fact that our Chaldean Church recognizes the place of images within a church, and yet does not have an uninterrupted tradition of iconography as other Churches do. We reestablish the ancient practice by looking at how our neighbors do things.

One example, the icon of Christ’s glorious humanity that is supposed to be on the altar… what does that look like since we don’t have surviving examples?
Do the Assyrians (and Chaldean Catholics) recognize the same seven sacraments as the rest of the Church?
Currently, the Assyrian church does not list the same seven sacraments as the Catholic Church does. The Chaldean Church lists the same seven.

The issue is in that the differentiation between Sacraments and Sacramentals developed in the West and had no equivalent development in the Church of the East where Raza has a meaning not quite equal to Sacrament. And yet, with the number seven being ascribed to the Sacraments, the Church of the East also sought to have SEVEN Sacraments. The list followed by the Assyrian Church is from Mar Abdisho’s book “The Pearl”, but we have other lists like that of Patriarch Timothy II {around the same time, a little later} who had a different seven.

I think the Assyrian and the Catholic church were so close to coming to agreement on the list of Sacraments. During the Pro-Oriente non-official dialogues, many of the issues on the Sacraments were hammered out to the point where I believe an agreement could easily have been signed.

One difference is that marriage is not listed in the Assyrian church, and yet it was in Timothy’s list, and even Abdisho thought so highly of it that he included it in his discussion of Sacraments. The number seven and the lack of developed definition of Sacrament played a big role. He needed seven and so marriage was just outside.

However, if one looks at it more closely, the Sign of the Cross would not really fit into the definition of Sacrament as the Catholic Church has defined it. It is really more than a sacrament in that it is as my bishop, Mar Sarhad, told me, “really the sacrament of the Sacraments.” In fact, Mar Abdisho does not actually say much about the Sign of the Cross other than to state:

The Sign of the life-giving Cross is that by which Christians are ever kept, and by it all the other Sacraments are sealed and perfected.

The “Sacraments” in there should really read “mysteries” as it does not only include those listed. As I understand it, this coincides with the view of the Maronites as well.

Similarly, Holy Melkha, other than as a way of emphasizing the venerable tradition, does not really need to be considered as one of the Seven Sacraments.
 
One thing else… the Assyrian priests and deacons do marry. Sometimes this happens quite scandalously, with people getting divorced and re-married. What follows is a very general overview. I don’t have access to my copy of the Synods and my little books that talk about this.

This comes from the Council of Babai, which upheld a decision in an earlier council that had already been overturned. They allowed all religious even bishops and monks/nuns to marry. This was under the pressure of the Persian kings and the Zoroastrians, who looked unfavorably towards Christian celibacy. Although Mar Abba went through the countryside working against the decadency that had resulted, it seems that at the end, only bishops and monks/nuns were forbidden from marrying. The priests and deacons may have continued to do so.

Interestingly, in the 1920’s, the Pan-Orthodox Congress discussed the issue of marriage after ordination, and decided {until and if an Ecumenical Council says otherwise} there was no theological reason to prevent priests from marrying, and allowed it in the case of priests who had lost their wives during the war. The scriptures quoted in those discussions, if I recall correctly, were pretty much the same as in the Church of the East synod.
 
The Catholicosate-Patriarchate was formerly nepotic - that is, it passed from uncle to nephew. That was the case from the 15th or 16th century until 1975, when Catholicos-Patriarch Simun XXIII, of blessed memory, the last hereditary patriarch, reposed.

So?

Tradition says that this ‘starter’ was brought to them by Blessed Addai, one of the 70 Disciples ans, specifically, a disciple associated with the missions of St Thomas. A piece of the dough is kept from each baking of the liturgical bread and used in the baking of the next. It is a holy and revered tradition.
Peace, Diakona. I was only relating my observations and intended no criticism.
 
As regards the number of Mysteries, it is often said of many of the Eastern and Oriental Churches that our Mysteries are not defined by number.
 
Although latinization has taken place, I think it has to do more with the fact that our Chaldean Church recognizes the place of images within a church, and yet does not have an uninterrupted tradition of iconography as other Churches do. We reestablish the ancient practice by looking at how our neighbors do things.

One example, the icon of Christ’s glorious humanity that is supposed to be on the altar… what does that look like since we don’t have surviving examples?
:confused::confused::confused::confused:
actually In East Syrian tradition Icons are not allowed in side altar right?
 
:confused::confused::confused::confused:
actually In East Syrian tradition Icons are not allowed in side altar right?
Actually, from the prayers, in the Hudra, it is seen there should be a Gospel, a Cross, and an Icon of Christ.

Even in the new Assyrian Catechism, the following is stated:
And, according to the Takhsa, in order for the priest to celebrate the Holy Qurbana (Holy Offering) there must be these three things; namely, The Holy Gospel, the Holy Cross, and the Icon of Christ.

So there is definitely the place of icons in our Church’s history, liturgy, laws, and teachings… there’s just a disconnect due to external circumstances, and now among many of the faithful that is unfortunately due to ignorance of the Church’s true teachings and the influence of Islam in the old countries and Protestant theology in the diaspora.
 
The Rabbula Gospels are probably a good indication and give a hint:

One example that was pointed out to me by one of our priests:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Mainly of Byzantine type but with Persian style to it… there’s many aspects of it that won’t be seen in regular Byzantine iconography of the Ascension.

Also, take a look at our Calendar on Kaldu from last year. There’s examples from the East like near China:

kaldu.org/2010/2010LiturgicalCalendar/06June.html

From Iraq during the Mongol period:

kaldu.org/2010/2010LiturgicalCalendar/07July.html

Now one more thing… in a destroyed church in the Persian capital, there was discovered the remains of a statue that had been there. In the China, there were engravings and carvings found, so the practice in the Church of the East was not altogether only in the form of painted icons, but they included statues and engravings.
 
I do believe that, the Assyrian tradition has a very interesting and wonderful role in understanding the Church.
Dispute between east-west is usually only about established Roman-Byzantine traditions.

But I believe, both Roman-Byzantine traditions need to learn, study, hear from other traditions. For instance the conception of synodality or primate, in the first millenium will be very skewed without taking other traditions into account.
 
Agreed, the Syrian tradition (eastern and western) Is very important and relatively unknown to many people. I’ve been trying to learn more about it myself. Isaac and Ephrem are the doorkeepers to a beautiful and rich theology.

Here is a cool piece by Dr. William Tighe (A Byzantine Catholic Professor) about the relationship of the Assyrian Church and Nestorius and the Councils.
 
At the Armenian Apostolic church back home someone stands at the front of the pews handing out mantillas to any woman who tries to receive Holy Communion without a head covering.
 
Liturgy of Addai and Mari
The Holy Qurbana of Addai and Mari belongs to the East Syrian liturgical family (see Syriac Christians) and is in regular use in the Church of the East, Syro-Malabar Catholic Church and the Chaldean Catholic Church. Saint Addai (disciple of Saint Thomas the Apostle) and Saint Mari (a disciple of Saint Addai) are credited with having written it. The Holy Qurbana of Addai and Mari is one of the oldest Eucharistic prayers in the Christian Church.

The Eucharistic Liturgy has three forms: the most solemn form known as the Raza, the solemn and the simple form.

One of the special features of the Eucharist Prayer is the presence of four long prayers known as the Gehantha, which are, according to many Eucharistic scholars, the closest forms of prayer to the Jewish Prayers over the meals.
Current Roman Catholic Position
In its pure form, the anaphora does not include the Words of Institution. This has raised ecumenical concerns, since the Roman Catholic Church has traditionally considered the Words of Institution to be essential to the validity of the sacred mystery. Nevertheless, the Roman Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith concluded on January 17, 2001 that the Anaphora of Addai and Mari can be considered valid. Three reasons were given for this. First, the Anaphora of Addai and Mari dates back to the early Church. Secondly, the Church of the East has otherwise preserved the orthodox faith in regard to the Eucharist and Holy Orders. And finally, though the Words of Institution do not appear in a coherent way, they are present in a dispersed way through prayers of praise, thanksgiving and intercession. What this last point would seem to mean is that the Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari is a reenactment of Christ’s Mystical Supper, even without the Words of Institution.

Though this decision by the Roman Catholic Church is not irreformable, its ecumenical importance should not be underestimated. Because of this decision, it is thought by some that there are some circumstances in which the Church can accept an Epiclesis in place of the Words of Institution. Others maintain, however, that this decision affirms that the Words of Institution are present in an implicit way, still regarding the Words of Institution as the essential form of the Sacrament.

Chaldean Catholics, who use this rite, traditionally have inserted the Words of Institution into the Anaphora; they are now beginning to cease adding the interpolation.
Traditionalist Roman Catholic Reaction
Some Traditionalist Catholic groups have denounced this decision as heretical. They would argue that the consequences of this determination are very weighty in that it completely overthrows the sacramental theology ratified by the Council of Trent. According to this understanding, for a sacrament to be valid three elements are necessary: the matter; the form, being in this case the words of institution: “For this is my Body” recited over the bread and “For this is the cup of my Blood” over the wine; and the intention of the priest to do what the Church does. The counter-argument, which apparently lies behind Rome’s decision, asserts that “the words of the institution of the Eucharist are in fact present in the anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in the form of a coherent narration and in a literal way but in a eucological and disseminated manner, that is to say they are integrated in the prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession which follow”. The latter, however, is not accepted by traditionalist Roman Catholics.
 
Why is that priest vested in the West Syriac Rite?
 
I noticed that as well, it seems that the “Orthodox Catholic Church of America” (which the priest in this video is apart of) was originally apart of the Syriac Orthodox Church (Antioch) and is now completely autocephalous of any apostolic church? According to their history their church was established under the mandate of the Syriac Orthodox Church (Antioch) and their first bishop was ordained by the Syriac Orthodox Church (Jacobites of Kerala) when they first arrived in the U.S? They mix and blend all forms of Eastern Christianity, with no strict adherence to one form of liturgy and tradition. Along with this they ordain female deacons,priests,and bishops. There followers believe that they some how follow the apostolic tradition of the Syriac Orthodox Church (Jacobite) of Kerala. I’m not sure if these videos are the best to explain the East Syriac Rite, the Vatican considers this church the “Orthodox Catholic Church of America” to be schismatic. No disrespect meant but this church simply does not comply with Syriac Orthodoxy or Church of the East tradition.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox-Catholic_Church_of_America
orthodoxcatholicchurch.org/state.html
 
I noticed that as well, it seems that the “Orthodox Catholic Church of America” (which the priest in this video is apart of) was originally apart of the Syriac Orthodox Church (Antioch) and is now completely autocephalous of any apostolic church? According to their history their church was established under the mandate of the Syriac Orthodox Church (Antioch) and their first bishop was ordained by the Syriac Orthodox Church (Jacobites of Kerala) when they first arrived in the U.S? They mix and blend all forms of Eastern Christianity, with no strict adherence to one form of liturgy and tradition. Along with this they ordain female deacons,priests,and bishops. There followers believe that they some how follow the apostolic tradition of the Syriac Orthodox Church (Jacobite) of Kerala. I’m not sure if these videos are the best to explain the East Syriac Rite, the Vatican considers this church the “Orthodox Catholic Church of America” to be schismatic. No disrespect meant but this church simply does not comply with Syriac Orthodoxy or Church of the East tradition.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox-Catholic_Church_of_America
orthodoxcatholicchurch.org/state.html
Nor does it comply with any authentic Tradition, period. Looks like another garage/basement group with all clergy and no congregation.
 
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