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angierabbit2012
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Luvtosew
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No please read my other posts. God is everywhere at the same time, heaven and earth , no difference, Yes I believe we consume the Body , Blood , Soul and Divinity of Christ partaking in the host, but not in the cannabalistic defination,
Are you saying that Christ’s Body is not physical. That doesn’t sound right.
St Augustine, Doctor of the Church, says in a sermon (Gregory, Sacramentarium): “Each receives Christ the Lord, Who is entire under every morsel, nor is He less in each portion, but bestows Himself entire under each.”
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NewEnglandPriest
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But no one would claim to have received a whole apple. If I cut an apple in half, you’d say you received half an apple…No matter how many time we cut an apple, you can still taste the fullness of apple, yes?
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NewEnglandPriest
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In the Eucharist I would not say Christ is physically present in the same sense that we understand any other physical object. To borrow another poster’s analogy, if I divide an apple in two you’d say you got half an apple yet if I divide a host in two no one would claim to have received half of Christ. Well, you could, but that would be heresy…Are you saying that Christ’s Body is not physical. That doesn’t sound right.
Its times like this I appreciate the Eastern perspective of not trying to define the Sacred Mysteries too much.
Exactly my point…
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Luvtosew
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Well guess that means we can’t compare the “host to an apple” analogy.
:dancing::clapping::dancing:
:dancing::clapping::dancing:
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Filii_Dei
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But I still received apple.
I do hear of people who get a fractioned Host and say they only got half of Christ.
Christ is omnipresent and is fully present even in the smallest piece of the Host.But I still received apple.
I do hear of people who get a fractioned Host and say they only got half of Christ.
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NewEnglandPriest
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Yes, but not in the sense that we talk about receiving the whole and entire Christ in each crumb/drop. One couldn’t derive much benefit from receiving the entire substance of an apple while receiving a small portion of an apple. Yet one does derive the entire benefit of the entire Christ when receiving a crumb of the Eucharist.But I still received apple.
Indeed, at my parish we burn them at the stake after Mass…I do hear of people who get a fractioned Host and say they only got half of Christ.
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Laudate_Dominum
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Just to be clear, Christ is not physically present in the Most Holy Eucharist. The accidents of bread and wine remain. The bread and wine remain physically after Transubstantiation. That is, the look, texture, taste, smell, etc., of the bread and wine remains. But the substance is changed to that of Jesus Christ. His entire Body, Blood, Soul and Divinty whole. Even the tiniest particle of the sacred species contain His entire presence.
Is Christ’s substance not physically there? Are you saying that Christ’s substance is only spiritually there?
Substance is what is truly there.
Accidents is what appears to the eye to be there.
You are right, “The accidents of bread and wine remain.” “That is, the look, texture, taste, smell, etc., of the bread and wine remains.” However, the substance is Christ. To the bodily eye it looks like bread and wine, however, it is Christ.
St Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church says in Summa Theologica:
“The substance of the bread or wine, after the consecration, remains neither under the sacramental species, nor elsewhere; yet it does not follow that it is annihilated; for it is changed into the body of Christ; just as if the air, from which fire is generated, be not there or elsewhere, it does not follow that it is annihilated.”
“Yet meanwhile in our pilgrimage He does not deprive us of His bodily presence; but unites us with Himself in this sacrament through the truth of His body and blood.”
“Our bodily eye, on account of the sacramental species, is hindered from beholding the body of Christ underlying them, not merely as by way of veil (just as we are hindered from seeing what is covered with any corporeal veil), but also because Christ’s body bears a relation to the medium surrounding this sacrament, not through its own accidents, but through the sacramental species.”
Therefore there is no bread and wine physically present. Only the accidents/appearance of the bread and wine remain. Christ is physically present in His substance. Only the accidents/appearance of bread and wine remain.
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Luvtosew
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I think New England Priest described it well.
I gather the bread is physically present, as if you cut it in half like we can, we can see it and only get 1/2 a host, but that Christ is not physically present as if we’d cut the host in half we’d only get 1/2 of him, but no matter how small that piece of host is we still consume all of Jesus, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
So thats a good thing, because even if the host accidently broke in lots of pieces, the person with the tiniest crumb would still get as much of Jesus as the person with a much larger piece of the host. thats why they treat even crumbs as sacred.
I gather the bread is physically present, as if you cut it in half like we can, we can see it and only get 1/2 a host, but that Christ is not physically present as if we’d cut the host in half we’d only get 1/2 of him, but no matter how small that piece of host is we still consume all of Jesus, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
So thats a good thing, because even if the host accidently broke in lots of pieces, the person with the tiniest crumb would still get as much of Jesus as the person with a much larger piece of the host. thats why they treat even crumbs as sacred.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:I think New England Priest described it well.
I gather the bread is physically present, as if you cut it in half like we can, we can see it and only get 1/2 a host, but that Christ is not physically present as if we’d cut the host in half we’d only get 1/2 of him, but no matter how small that piece of host is we still consume all of Jesus, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. the Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion.
There is no bread or wine physically present. The bread and wine has been converted into the Body and Blood of Christ. Only the accidents/appearance of bread and wine are present.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:
1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.
Christ is not divided by the breaking of the Host.
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JimG
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Using the word “physical” in reference to the Eucharist produces confusion only because for most of us, “physical” means the accidents of a particular object and not its substance.
When we say something is ‘physically’ present, we usually mean that we that we can discern the object by its taste, smell, dimensions, duration, molecular structure. Philosophically, those are all accidents. They are not the substance of an object.
After the consecration the substance of bread and wine are gone. The substance of the bread and wine has been transformed into the substance of Christ. But the accidents remain. That’s why we still perceive the accidents of bread and wine. (Note that those accidents do not inhere in any substance, because the bread and wine are gone, replaced by Christ.)
After the consecration, the substance of Jesus Christ is truly present whole and entire, all of him—and yes, he has a body, not merely a “spiritual” body, whatever that may mean. So all of him is present. His whole body, his blood, his human soul, his divine nature, his divine Person.
But we do not perceive his accidents, or appearances. We perceive only the appearances of the bread and wine, whose substance is no longer present.
Because of his mode of presence, he cannot be subdivided (or multiplied). Breaking the host in half or quarters or smaller pieces does not subdivide Christ. He is wholly present under the appearances of each particle, just as the one Christ is present in each host, though he himself is not and cannot be multiplied.
If we chew up the host, we don’t destroy the body of Christ. He remains whole and entire. So cannibalism is impossible.
When we say something is ‘physically’ present, we usually mean that we that we can discern the object by its taste, smell, dimensions, duration, molecular structure. Philosophically, those are all accidents. They are not the substance of an object.
After the consecration the substance of bread and wine are gone. The substance of the bread and wine has been transformed into the substance of Christ. But the accidents remain. That’s why we still perceive the accidents of bread and wine. (Note that those accidents do not inhere in any substance, because the bread and wine are gone, replaced by Christ.)
After the consecration, the substance of Jesus Christ is truly present whole and entire, all of him—and yes, he has a body, not merely a “spiritual” body, whatever that may mean. So all of him is present. His whole body, his blood, his human soul, his divine nature, his divine Person.
But we do not perceive his accidents, or appearances. We perceive only the appearances of the bread and wine, whose substance is no longer present.
Because of his mode of presence, he cannot be subdivided (or multiplied). Breaking the host in half or quarters or smaller pieces does not subdivide Christ. He is wholly present under the appearances of each particle, just as the one Christ is present in each host, though he himself is not and cannot be multiplied.
If we chew up the host, we don’t destroy the body of Christ. He remains whole and entire. So cannibalism is impossible.
Thanks Jim! I didn’t realize that people use the word physical to mean accidents. Thanks for clarifying this.
[EDIT]
When I used “physical” I meant substance. I thought everyone was denying the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ.
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JimG
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Actually, I’m afraid that in everyday life, people simply make no real distinction between substance and accident. In this largely materialist age, if it can’t be perceived, it doesn’t exist. Yet the distinction is not all that hard to understand.Thanks Jim! I didn’t realize that people use the word physical to mean accidents. Thanks for clarifying this.
[EDIT]
When I used “physical” I meant substance. I thought everyone was denying the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ.
We all know intuitively that we only know the outside world initially through our senses; that’s how we get data. But the sense perceptions we receive–the accidents of an object–are dependent on a lot of things, wavelength of light, for example. If I am perceived only as a radar image, or only by infrared illumination, the perceptions will be quite different though the underlying person has not changed.
It’s a good system for knowing reality. Except for transubstantiation. God artificially holds the accidents of bread and wine (but not the substance) in existence for us to perceive, while the underlying reality–substantial reality–is Jesus Christ in his entirety.
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Luvtosew
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Jim you must be a scientist, ha ha , didn’t understand a word of your last post.
you said tho **So cannibalism is impossible. **
why would you say that?
you said tho **So cannibalism is impossible. **
why would you say that?
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Digitonomy
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…if you accept this odd new definition of cannibalism, rather than the simple “eating human flesh” definition most would use.
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JimG
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Because there is nothing we can do to the consecrated host which would damage or destroy or even subdivide the body of Christ. In cannibalism, we destroy or subdivide the flesh of the one being consumed–a piece at a time. With the Eucharist, that is impossible. Jesus can only be received whole and entire, whether you receive an entire host or only 1/16th of a host.
Awesome explanation. Thanks!
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