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MiserereMeiDei
Guest
It seems from the prior verses that he was carrying money for the poor. If he was stealing from the poor it would be hard for it not to be mortal I should think.
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Asinner
Guest
No, Judas betrayed Jesus before the Last Supper. See Mark 14:10-11 and Matthew 26:14-16.
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That is the problem.
The conditions necessary for sin to be mortal are not directly viewable as evidence.
One would have to know what exactly someone is thinking in order to make the claim against someone that they are in a state of mortal sin.
Unless scripture tells us outright that Judas received unworthily, we must take the position of not knowing.
This happened before, but until the betrayal in the garden, he can choose not to.
Agreement with the Pharisees does not become betrayal until the betrayal is done.
Betrayal is not do e until the garden.
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Asinner
Guest
I thought you were just not clear on the order of the events of the betrayal. Now it’s obvious to me that you are just stretching to ridiculous lengths just for the sake of argument. I’m not interested in that.
I wasn’t. It was made very clear to me.
The kiss in the garden of Gethsemane was the act of betrayal. Until that happened, he could have chosen otherwise.
I do not believe we can make the claim that Judas received unworthily. The most serious of his sin occurred well after the supper.
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Asinner
Guest
Going to the Pharisees is also an act of betrayal. Taking active steps to put an evil plan in motion is a sin.
It is an agreement to a future betrayal.
It is not the betrayal.
It provides opportunity to change his mind.
It also provides evidence of preparation, making his eventual betrayal even worse.
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Asinner
Guest
NO! It is betrayal!
You making DANGEROUS errors that lead others astray when you say that taking active steps towards evil and orienting the heart towards evil isn’t evil itself. Stop defending Judas and leading others astray. Judas was sitting at the Last Supper the entire time looking for the right time to finish what he started.
I never said that.
What I said was the betrayal took place in the garden, with a kiss.
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
The intention is the same as the act. If someone deliberately intends to kill someone but for some reason is prevented from actually carrying it out, that person is still guilty of the sin of murder because they had the intention of doing it.
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
One IS guilty of murder even though prevented from committing it.
Matthew 5: 27-28:
You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. [28] But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.
The same applies to murder, stealing and anything against the Decalogue.
It’s almost midnight so I’m turning in. More later.
Matthew 5: 27-28:
You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. [28] But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.
The same applies to murder, stealing and anything against the Decalogue.
It’s almost midnight so I’m turning in. More later.
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Your going to have a hard time with no body found.
Besides that, the 3 conditions for a mortal sin are as follows…
1 serious matter
2 full knowledge and consent of will
3 do it.
Are you telling me we can now sin mortally without actually meeting the criteria for a mortal sin?
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
Not so.
The 3 conditions for mortal sin are:
The 3 conditions for mortal sin are:
- Serious matter
- Full knowledge
- Full consent of the will
Fair enough.
But you will have a very hard time showing full consent of the will as long as the choice to not sin can be made.
Inthe case we are looking at, Judas betrays Jesus.
This is a serious matter, as any betrayal would be, even of it were not God.
He has full knowledge… maybe. We really cannot say if he had complete knowledge of the ramifications of what he was doing.
Let’s say yes. Just for the sake of the argument.
Full consent of the will…
We are humans. We live in time, just as God intended. Which also means we live with memory of the past, knowledge of present, but no knowledge of the future.
Until he kissed Jesus, he could choose otherwise. His will is not set. Humans are fickle. Our minds change. The only way to be certain of a full consent of will is to have done the deed.
Otherwise we may just as well argue that Adam consented to sin from the moment of his creation since we know he will sin.
Or as the case here, that Judas was guilty before he betrayed Jesus.
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
In the sight of God, Who knows everything and especially our hearts, full consent of the will IS the deed. C.f. Matt. 5: 27-28 posted above.
I can accept that. God knows all.
We do not.
But you have now very effectively made my point.
We cannot know if Judas received unworthily.
Therefore we cannot legitimately claim to know.
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
Obviously, we’ll find out on Judgement Day. Before that, however, I’ll stick with St. John Chrysostom. 
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