Holy Communion

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Paul_theApostle

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Hi,when i see the Holy Communion at Mass i see that it is a small piece of Bread.

Is it in fact bread? i see that we do not use a loaf of bread like what we eat at lunch,

Im trying to say sometimes i doubt its really Christ in the Sacrament because it doesnt look like normal Bread and at the last supper im visualising Christ using large loafs of bread.

Or maybe because its really small and how can the Whole of God who created the universe be present in such a small thing?
 
Paul_theApostle said:
Hi,when i see the Holy Communion at Mass i see that it is a small piece of Bread.

Is it in fact bread? i see that we do not use a loaf of bread like what we eat at lunch,

Im trying to say sometimes i doubt its really Christ in the Sacrament because it doesnt look like normal Bread and at the last supper im visualising Christ using large loafs of bread.

Or maybe because its really small and how can the Whole of God who created the universe be present in such a small thing?
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It’s bread, yes. It’s just unleavened. What Christ used at the Last Supper was also unleavened bread. Maybe you should read John chapter 6, that is what totally convinced me that He was there.
The Whole of God can be there because He can do anything He wants to:) And if that means He wants to give himself to us in the form of a wafer, He can do it, and He does.
 
Oumashta said:
It’s bread, yes. It’s just unleavened. What Christ used at the Last Supper was also unleavened bread. Maybe you should read John chapter 6, that is what totally convinced me that He was there.
The Whole of God can be there because He can do anything He wants to:) And if that means He wants to give himself to us in the form of a wafer, He can do it, and He does.
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I read this-

Jews consume unleavened breads such as matzo during Passover.
They are also used in the Western Christian liturgy when Roman Catholics celebrate the Eucharist. On the other hand, Orthodox Church explicitly forbids the use of unleavened bread for Eucharist as pertaining to the Old Testament and allows only for bread with yeast, as a symbol of the New. Indeed, this was one of the three points of contention that brought about the schism between Eastern and Western churches in 1054

I cant find anything about Christ using unleavened bread at Last supper.
 
If it becomes no longer bread then whats the difference whether it has yeast in it or not as the Orthodox use yeast.
 
Paul_theApostle said:
If it becomes no longer bread then whats the difference whether it has yeast in it or not as the Orthodox use yeast.
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Bottomline, we use unleavened bread because that’s what Jesus used when He instituted the Eucharist.

I think your question really has to do with licit vs illicit not valid vs invalid…
 
steve_b said:
Bottomline, we use unleavened bread because that’s what Jesus used when He instituted the Eucharist.

I think your question really has to do with licit vs illicit not valid vs invalid…
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yes it does

i wasnt asking about the Last Supper bread
 
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steve_b:
:confused:

For Latins, the licit bread is unleavened (for that reason). . For the EO the licit bread is leavened.

Just saying You were right ,my question was about valicity

Do you know why the EO prefer the leavened ,if thats not what Christ used?

Or do the Orthodox believe He used leavened?
 
Paul_theApostle said:
I cant find anything about Christ using unleavened bread at Last supper.
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What was the “last supper”? It was the Passover meal
What is eaten at the Passover? unleavened bread
Therefore, what was used at the Last Supper? unleavened bread
 
1ke said:
What was the “last supper”? It was the Passover meal
What is eaten at the Passover? unleavened bread
Therefore, what was used at the Last Supper? unleavened bread
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I asked an Orthodox about this and they told me this

IX. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils, according to the example of our Savior, celebrated the divine Eucharist for more than a thousand years throughout the East and West with leavened bread, as the truth-loving papal theologians themselves also bear witness; but the Papal Church from the eleventh century made an innovation also in the sacrament of the divine Eucharist by introducing unleavened bread.
 
Paul_theApostle said:
I asked an Orthodox about this and they told me this

IX. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils, according to the example of our Savior, celebrated the divine Eucharist for more than a thousand years throughout the East and West with leavened bread, as the truth-loving papal theologians themselves also bear witness; but the Papal Church from the eleventh century made an innovation also in the sacrament of the divine Eucharist by introducing unleavened bread.
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That is not the question you asked. You asked why the Catholic Church uses unleavened bread, and it is because of the connection to Passover.

The Church does not teach that leavened bread is invalid matter. It is the Latin Rite discipline to use unleavened bread. The Eucharist of the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches and that of the Orthodox both use leavened bread and the Catholic Church recognizes this as completely valid.

newadvent.org/cathen/05584a.htm
 
1ke said:
That is not the question you asked. You asked why the Catholic Church uses unleavened bread, and it is because of the connection to Passover.

The Church does not teach that leavened bread is invalid matter. It is the Latin Rite discipline to use unleavened bread. The Eucharist of the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches and that of the Orthodox both use leavened bread and the Catholic Church recognizes this as completely valid.

newadvent.org/cathen/05584a.htm
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I asked Orthodox Christians elsewhere regarding this issue and they sent me that statement.

The Orthodox as you wouldve read believe Christ used Leavened bread at the Supper and that Rome used Leavened bread for 1000 years.

So tell me who do i believe ,the Orthodox or the Catholic version?

What bread did he use?

You say one thing ,the Orthodox say another,its a joke Brother.
 
The Last Supper was done during the Passover meal (seder). Jesus would have used unleavened bread as it was the custom. The Latin Rite see it fitting that we imitate What Jesus Would Have Done.

The Eastern Rite uses a different layer of meaning and likened yeast as soul and beaten-baked wheat as body. So, for the body to have soul, yeast is used for the bread (=leavened bread).

Which one is correct? Neither and both. We cannot know 100% sure that Jesus use either bread (or both) however from the custom we could make an educated guess. Because different rites have different liturgical law, the approval of one does not make the other invalid as long as the spirit and meaning of the Holy Eucharist is maintained and preserved.

It’s like driving on the right hand side of the road is illegal in most European countries. Different countries have different rule that must be obeyed by the citizen.

As with the OP initial question on how can it be God Almighty can be present in a humble form of bread, well as posted previously by others, read John 6 and the pope’s encyclical. If you decide to leave like the many then go ahead, however we (Catholic and Orthodox) decide to stay like the twelve. We may not comprehend the mystery of this event, but where else can we go but to trust on Jesus’s words.

God Bless
 
MACHIU said:
The Last Supper was done during the Passover meal (seder). Jesus would have used unleavened bread as it was the custom. The Latin Rite see it fitting that we imitate What Jesus Would Have Done.

The Eastern Rite uses a different layer of meaning and likened yeast as soul and beaten-baked wheat as body. So, for the body to have soul, yeast is used for the bread (=leavened bread).

Which one is correct? Neither and both. We cannot know 100% sure that Jesus use either bread (or both) however from the custom we could make an educated guess. Because different rites have different liturgical law, the approval of one does not make the other invalid as long as the spirit and meaning of the Holy Eucharist is maintained and preserved.

It’s like driving on the right hand side of the road is illegal in most European countries. Different countries have different rule that must be obeyed by the citizen.

As with the OP initial question on how can it be God Almighty can be present in a humble form of bread, well as posted previously by others, read John 6 and the pope’s encyclical. If you decide to leave like the many then go ahead, however we (Catholic and Orthodox) decide to stay like the twelve. We may not comprehend the mystery of this event, but where else can we go but to trust on Jesus’s words.

God Bless
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Rome may accept the Eastern Rite,but the Orthodox consider the Latin rite bread to be an Innovation,

Did you read this?-

The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils, according to the example of our Savior, celebrated the divine Eucharist for more than a thousand years throughout the East and West with leavened bread, as the truth-loving papal theologians themselves also bear witness; but the Papal Church from the eleventh century made an innovation also in the sacrament of the divine Eucharist by introducing unleavened bread.

What do you think of it?
 
The Council of Florence approved the use of either kind of bread in 1439, so the use of leavened or unleavened bread is a question of licit-ness, not validity.
The council stated, “We have likewise defined that the body of Christ is truly effected in unleavened or leavened wheaten bread and that priests ought to effect the body of our Lord in either one of these, and each one namely according to the custom of his Church, whether that of the West or of the East”

To use the driving analogy, it is the law of driving on the right side of the road (law), not the practice of driving at all (valid).

Latin Rite is not permitted to use unleavened bread by its Canon Law, but if a Latin priest use leavened bread it’s still transsubstantiated to the Holy Eucharist, although he may get reprimanded for ignoring the Canon Law.
The Eastern Rite and Orthodox have their own Law and they use leavened bread.

Is that all you have objection for? Leavened or unleavened bread? Both are still bread taht is made from wheat and flour and Wheat-bread that was use for the Last Supper. Whether leavened or unleavened does not change the validity of the Holy Eucharist. Do you believe in and accept doctrine of the Real Presence? If so, observe your liturgical law according to your rite (whichever it may be). If not, why fuss about leavened or unleavened when you do not even care.
 
The OP uses as his screen name “Christian”, I wonder if he/she is even Catholic. That might be the problem he/she is having with this issue, as unless you believe in the Real Presence it is unlikely that a person would have any understanding of Catholic or Orthodox belief.

I only know of one CAF member who uses another name other than Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran etc. He is a Catholic but chooses another name for his own reasons.

What does the name Christian really mean as far as beliefs. Protestants, except for a very few don’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist except in a symbolic manner.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
BernadetteM said:
The OP uses as his screen name “Christian”, I wonder if he/she is even Catholic. That might be the problem he/she is having with this issue, as unless you believe in the Real Presence it is unlikely that a person would have any understanding of Catholic or Orthodox belief.

I only know of one CAF member who uses another name other than Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran etc. He is a Catholic but chooses another name for his own reasons.

What does the name Christian really mean as far as beliefs. Protestants, except for a very few don’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist except in a symbolic manner.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
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There is another member called "follower of Jesus’

The screen question asks 'Religion" My Religion is "Christianity so i will now change it to that
If i just say the word ‘Orthodox’ how does that distinguish itself from being an Orthodox Jew?

Also Orthodox Christians can also consider themselves Catholics as they believe in the Universality of the Church
 
When someone puts their denomination in, it helps forum members to understand where that person is coming from in their faith and to better answer their questions.

That is the only reason. We have Jewish members here and they state they are Jewish, not Orthodox.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
BernadetteM said:
When someone puts their denomination in, it helps forum members to understand where that person is coming from in their faith and to better answer their questions.

That is the only reason. We have Jewish members here and they state they are Jewish, not Orthodox.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
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Now that i state my Religion as Christianity as the screen asked me you can know that i am interested in discussing all aspects and denominations of Christianity

Where i go to pray or worship ive spoken about on other threads or you could just ask.
 
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