Holy Days and Romans 14:5?

[AlwaysAsking]

Hello,

I don’t know how to view Catholic-style mandatory holidays in light of Paul’s letter to the Romans-- can you help? In Ch. 14, verses 5-6 it says, “For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let every person be fully persuaded in his own mind.”

If it isn’t saying that observing holy days is optional, what does it mean?

Why was “observing days, months, seasons and years” (Gal. 4:10) bad? And why is it required now?

 

[Crumpy]

I’m going to respond with about 75% confidence that Paul is generally referring to the oral Torah of Jewish belief and practice. That’s what he would have been referring to.

But, the NT also describes the meeting of Christians for prayer and bible reading and for the breaking of the bread and teaching, and it says not to neglect it. Jesus instituted the Eucharist and commanded that we are to do it in memory of Him.

The Jewish days were deeply ceremonial and devotional in nature, but we have a new cause for celebration and worship.

In Genesis, God blessed the seventh day and made it holy. Christ made the first day of the week holy by His resurrection.

the Mass is a foretaste of heaven.

 

[ohioszo]

2 [5] Since the problem to be overcome was humanity’s perverted mind or judgment (Romans 1:28), Paul indicates that the mind of the Christian is now able to function with appropriate discrimination (cf Romans 12:2). from USCCB website

I think that a Catholic may use his conscience rather than to have a blanket disregard for days that are important. For instance, birthdays. Kindness would suggest that birthdays are important, a certain sect may outlaw them, another group would mention them at the services. If we acknowledge any birthdays, we know that Christ’s birth, above all, must be a very important. (Personally, I feel my birthday for the whole month, or, at least for a week!) We may not even know the specific date, but, it has been accepted forever and everywhere to be December 25th. If you were to gather your family on another day, for reasons of logistics or work, that is fine: The Masses for the day, and, the worldwide celebration (Catholics and non-Catholics alike) will remain as a part of dependable calendar. The Lord has the 12 days of Christmas! People sometimes may jump the gun (Advent parties,) or, have Christmas in July … a convenient reunion time for a large family … Only time when dates are changed from year to year is Easter. One must keep separate this admonition by Paul between the calendar and the celebration per se, of a family gathering. An instance of Christmas Eve, does give problems with in-laws, and just hurrying to get it all around!

Noone forces anyone to celebrate anything … not even the fourth of July. We know that dictators may do this … we all know about communism’s fav dates for instance… which may be the only time they had in their history, where they were allowed a day off of work!

 

[AlwaysAsking]

Thank you Crumpy and ohioszo for your responses. I have to confess I still don’t quite understand… and I’m asking for the sake of future apologetics…

I find on Wikipedia this quote from the code of canon law:

1. Sunday, on which by apostolic tradition the paschal mystery is celebrated, must be observed in the universal Church as the primordial holy day of obligation. The following days must also be observed: the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension, the Body and Blood of Christ, Holy Mary the Mother of God, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, Saint Joseph, Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles, and All Saints.

So someone-- for example, my husband-- says, “Look, the catholic Church doesn’t respect an individual’s right to believe that one day is no more holy than another!”

(Bible Christians are free to celebrate holidays but don’t officially believe they’re holy. They don’t have a proper answer to “If you hold the Ten Commandments, why don’t you keep the Sabbath holy?” either, but that’s different)

Any help is appreciated!

 

[PLeeD]

Why was “observing days, months, seasons and years” (Gal. 4:10) bad? And why is it required now?

From what I’ve gathered, the answer is because Rome says so. That supersedes any particular verse of scripture.

(Bible Christians are free to celebrate holidays but don’t officially believe they’re holy. They don’t have a proper answer to “If you hold the Ten Commandments, why don’t you keep the Sabbath holy?” either, but that’s different)

???

Isn’t the answer in the verse from Paul that you initially quoted. Plus, when Jesus was recounting and expanding on several of the ten commandments in the Sermon on the Mount, one that he did not reference was keeping the sabbath. I don’t think keeping the sabbath is commanded anywhere in the NT, and Paul specifies that it’s not required.

 

[Todd_Easton]

My :twocents:…

In Romans 14:5, the point seems to be that you should not judge other Christians based on their private devotional practices, or lack thereof (abstaining from certain foods and observing particular days, in this case).

In Galatians 4:10, St. Paul seems to be writing against Judaizers, who wrongly taught as unchangeable Church dogma that Gentile Christians must become Jews, observing Jewish circumcision, keeping Jewish kosher food laws and Jewish holidays (Sabbaths, new moons, etc.), in order to be saved.

Acts 15 shows that it is within the power of Church leaders to decide both unchangeable Church dogma (against unchastity, in this case) and changeable Church disciplinary practices (abstaining from certain foods, in this case) and those decisions should be observed.

 

[JimG]

It seems that God was the first one to command that a particular day be kept holy: in the 10 Commandments, he commanded us to keep holy the sabbath day. Soon after Pentecost, at the founding of Christianity, the Church made a decision that the day of the Lord’s resurrection would be the Christian holy day.

Do non-Catholics believe that any of the ten commandments including this one, have been abolished? Is that why it’s no big deal to skip church on Sunday?

 

[inocente]

Do non-Catholics believe that any of the ten commandments including this one, have been abolished? Is that why it’s no big deal to skip church on Sunday?

The wording of the fourth commandment is subtle. Instead of saying “the Sabbath day is holy” it says “remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy”. Is that about going to church or remembering to honor God in everything we do that day? Does doing no work mean not even lighting a candle? Does it apply at all to the Gentiles?

We can imagine the endless debate on CAF :slapfight: until Paul steps in as moderator.

Paul says that on such things we should act in conscience and let others to do the same. If I believe there are days set aside as holy then I’m right to observe them. If another Christian believes otherwise in conscience then they are also right before the Lord. We shouldn’t judge each other and cause each other to stumble on such things - it’s not up to us when we all belong to the Lord.

But it isn’t a get-out-of-jail-free card either - Paul says we sin if we don’t act in conscience.

There was a news report yesterday about the United Arab Republic, which has a clause on freedom of religion in its constitution. A number of people of different faiths said that overall they felt completely free to practice their religion. An Arabic Catholic said that for everyone’s convenience the state has set aside Fridays as the universal holy day, and while it was hard to get used to, he no longer found it a problem.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Soon after Pentecost, at the founding of Christianity, the Church made a decision that the day of the Lord’s resurrection would be the Christian holy day.

Do non-Catholics believe that any of the ten commandments including this one, have been abolished? Is that why it’s no big deal to skip church on Sunday?

Sunday worship did not replace the Sabbath. Many Christians in the early church kept both Sabbath and Sunday worship. Sabbath was not “changed” from Saturday to Sunday until the fourth century. Christ fulfilled the Sabbath; our rest is in Him. Sunday was and is the day most Christians gather together to give thanks and offer praise to God, but it is not mandatory.

 

[ohioszo]

In “Jesus of Nazareth” by Pope Benedict XVI, he writes of a Rabbi who wrote about his conversation with Jesus, specifically about the 10 commandments. The third commandment of keeping the Sabbath holy, the Rabbi, in his conversation, has the answer that Jesus is the Sabbath, He is the Word of God and the Temple. As to whether one should us the day for reasons of family, rest: Our rest is in the Lord Jesus Christ. The social aspect of a society: Constantine’s “Christian inspired reform of the legal system” gave Sunday as the day of rest, legally. A post suggested Friday for society in a Muslim country … that doesn’t mean that Sunday is no longer Christ’s day. A Catholic and a Christian in that Arab country, will work if he/she has to, but, it will be a day offered for the Lord in every way possible, like attending Mass. Catholics actually are exhorted to bring the Word of God to their lives, every day of the week, from the blessing at the end of Mass.

It is the “Torah of the Messiah” taking precedence over the “Torah of Moses.” FYI: The Day of Christ’s Resurrection.

From what I’ve gathered, the answer is because Rome says so. That supersedes any particular verse of scripture.

???

Isn’t the answer in the verse from Paul that you initially quoted. Plus, when Jesus was recounting and expanding on several of the ten commandments in the Sermon on the Mount, one that he did not reference was keeping the sabbath. I don’t think keeping the sabbath is commanded anywhere in the NT, and Paul specifies that it’s not required.

 

[JimG]

Sunday worship did not replace the Sabbath. Many Christians in the early church kept both Sabbath and Sunday worship. Sabbath was not “changed” from Saturday to Sunday until the fourth century. Christ fulfilled the Sabbath; our rest is in Him. Sunday was and is the day most Christians gather together to give thanks and offer praise to God, but it is not mandatory.

Indeed, post-resurrection, Christians (who were at that time, mostly Jews) continued to go to synagogue on the Sabbath for prayers. It is recounted that they gathered in synagogue for the prayers, and met in homes for the “breaking of the bread,” in other words, the Eucharist. No one felt a need to discontinue Sabbath observance.

When the Christians were ultimately kicked out of the synagogue, they combined both into what we have now, a liturgy of the Word and a liturgy of the Eucharist. But I don’t see where it was ever suggested for the first 1500 years of Christianity, or even after, that weekly worship was no longer needed. None of the other ten commandments seem to have been abandoned.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Indeed, post-resurrection, Christians (who were at that time, mostly Jews) continued to go to synagogue on the Sabbath for prayers. It is recounted that they gathered in synagogue for the prayers, and met in homes for the “breaking of the bread,” in other words, the Eucharist. No one felt a need to discontinue Sabbath observance.

When the Christians were ultimately kicked out of the synagogue, they combined both into what we have now, a liturgy of the Word and a liturgy of the Eucharist. But I don’t see where it was ever suggested for the first 1500 years of Christianity, or even after, that weekly worship was no longer needed. None of the other ten commandments seem to have been abandoned.

Sabbath observance on Saturday along with Sunday worship reached beyond the Jewish-Christian community as clearly evidenced by some of the ancient works out of Asia Minor.

The tradition of gathering on Sunday to celebrate the Eucharist can be traced back to the very beginning, but a line was crossed when a church council forbade the observance of the Jewish Sabbath and demanded that Christians observe Sunday worship only. That is a direct contradiction to what Paul stated in Romans 14. And I find it absurd that a church council thought they had the power to decide that one committed a mortal sin by not attending mass on Sunday.

This is not about abandoning weekly worship; it’s about standing up for Christian liberty. If, for example, a group of Christians want to gather on Tuesday to worship the Lord that’s their right, and they are under no obligation to do otherwise.

 

[ohioszo]

I don’t know about responding within a discussion of non-catholics who have no Masses, accd’g to the Roman Rite: But, it is absolutely true that one may gather to worship on any day. Sunday and Holy Days (not “holidays” a secular word … I wondered about its use here!) are the only requirements; there are Masses every day of the week … at our Parish at 9 AM, Wed.'s also 5 PM … also a Bible Study group will be held twice a week starting in the Fall. Saturday evening Mass is the Sunday readings. Adoration is Thursday and Friday … will be adding Wednesday. Retreats are held on weekends, when people are off work. Evenings and mornings are good for special missions when we have speakers from monasteries for instance. The readings from day to day throughout the year, follow the life of Christ. There are 3 different yearly reading of the Gospels, and, they follow Jesus from birth to resurrection in the Gospels, varying by the writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Some people will not miss any day, some people attend Saturday evening and Sunday. There is a lot of Church attending for Catholics! It is the same wherever you are in the world. The minimum is the Lord’s Day, Sunday, and Holy Days. Friday abstinence from meat was discontinued, but, one must do something on Friday for Jesus out of respect for His sacrifice. Some people fast or abstain on other days of the week, though, as well! (Your argument seems to coincide with the fasting discussion.) Priests are busy all of the time. Teaching children, confessions, funerals, weddings … Once in a while someone may make a note of rules, like weddings during Lent. Sundays during Lent, as it is God’s day … are days when Lental fasts are not necessary. It is unusual to hear about someone who complains about the Holy Spirit working in the Church! And that is just parish life … of course retreats/Masses/festivals/confessions are offered at shrines and monasteries.

Sabbath observance on Saturday along with Sunday worship reached beyond the Jewish-Christian community as clearly evidenced by some of the ancient works out of Asia Minor.

The tradition of gathering on Sunday to celebrate the Eucharist can be traced back to the very beginning, but a line was crossed when a church council forbade the observance of the Jewish Sabbath and demanded that Christians observe Sunday worship only. That is a direct contradiction to what Paul stated in Romans 14. And I find it absurd that a church council thought they had the power to decide that one committed a mortal sin by not attending mass on Sunday.

This is not about abandoning weekly worship; it’s about standing up for Christian liberty. If, for example, a group of Christians want to gather on Tuesday to worship the Lord that’s their right, and they are under no obligation to do otherwise.