Holy days of obligation: Must the readings be for the feast for the obligation to be met?

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Matthew_Holford said:
I know, with total confidence, that I’ve read somewhere that the decision is left to each diocesan bishop. For example, he could say that a Mass on Saturday doesn’t count for the Sunday obligation unless it’s at 6 p.m. or later. What I cannot remember is where I read it. That also poses the problem: if I can’t remember the source, we don’t know how authoritative that source is.

Last year I emailed my diocesan bishop’s office to ask what the time was in our diocese. They said they didn’t know they had to set a time so they looked into it further. They came back to me and said that neither our diocese nor this country’s bishops’ conference have decided what time on Saturday Masses start to fulfil the Sunday obligation. They also assured me that we have no ruling regarding 4 p.m. I’ve never read “Christus Dominus”. But, doesn’t that set the time for Evening Prayer and it’s been implied that that ought to be the earliest time for Mass on Saturday to count for Sunday’s obligation?
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Matthew,

I’m not quite sure if your last sentence was meant as a question or a rhetorical one. So, for the sake of the discussion, here are some thoughts:

A few points to remember. Canon law is only binding in the original Latin. The vernacular translations are useful tools, but they have no force of law. The English translation of the code says “evening” but the Latin Code says “vespere.” So, it matters not what the word “evening” means, it only matters what the Church means when She uses the word “vespere”.

Can. 1248 — § 1. Praecepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missae assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico vel ipso die festo vel vespere diei praecedentis.

So how do we interpret “vespere?” Canon law tells us that the canons are interpreted according to the plain meaning of the words given the text and context. Canon law also tells us that we interpret them according to the intent of the lawgiver. So, for example, someone might interpret the actual words of a canon in some obscure way that matches the words themselves, but not the intended meaning (which sometimes we know because it’s obvious, other times we don’t know). That’s why the best one to interpret that canon was Bl John Paul II himself, since he promulgated the law. No one can know what he meant better than he did. That’s why, when this subject comes up, I often refer readers here to *Dies Domini * so that they can read in JPII’s own words how he interpreted the canon that he promulgated:

the provision which allows the obligation to be fulfilled from Saturday evening onwards, starting at the time of First Vespers of Sunday.(87) From a liturgical point of view, in fact, holy days begin with First Vespers.(88)
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

We also need to keep in mind that the liturgical life of the Church must be viewed as an integral whole–meaning that one part of the Church’s liturgy does not conflict with another. The times for Mass and the times for the Hours work together rather than compete. If it’s Sunday according to the Lit. of the Hours, it’s Sunday according to the Mass. Likewise, it cannot be Saturday in one liturgical respect yet Sunday in another. Simply put, if it’s time to pray First Vespers of Sunday, then it’s Sunday. If it is not yet time to pray First Vespers of Sunday, then it’s not yet Sunday.

(87) Cf. Code of Canon Law, Canon 1248, 1; Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, Canon 881, 2.

(88) Cf. Missale Romanum, Normae Universales de Anno Liturgico et de Calendario, 3.
 
YoungTradCath said:
When, Fr., does First Vespers occur then?
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Traditionally it should be after sun down. But in the past time is more predictable in the Roman Empire as most of them are pretty down south where the difference between Summer and Winter sunsets are not big. Like here where I live, sunset during Winter Solstice is 4pm, and in Summer Solstice, DST factored in, its 9:30-ish. So the Church I believe has declared that 4pm from the previous day of a day of obligation would already fulfill the obligation. Sorry I do not have the source for that, but I know that has been discussed here in the past.
 
YoungTradCath said:
When, Fr., does First Vespers occur then?
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The actual time-of-day for it is 4 PM. I don’t have the sources handy, and I recall that when this came up earlier, it was very hard to find.

It brings us back to what’s already been posted though, in particular Christus Dominus
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/p12chdom.htm rule VI which defines an evening Mass as being no earlier than 4 PM.

It’s not exactly the same context, but nevertheless, if the Church defined an evening Mass as no earlier than 4 PM for one readon, then an evening Mass is no earlier than 4 PM for another reason.
 
FrDavid96 said:
Matthew,

I’m not quite sure if your last sentence was meant as a question or a rhetorical one. So, for the sake of the discussion, here are some thoughts:

A few points to remember. Canon law is only binding in the original Latin. The vernacular translations are useful tools, but they have no force of law. The English translation of the code says “evening” but the Latin Code says “vespere.” So, it matters not what the word “evening” means, it only matters what the Church means when She uses the word “vespere”.

Can. 1248 — § 1. Praecepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missae assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico vel ipso die festo vel vespere diei praecedentis.

So how do we interpret “vespere?” Canon law tells us that the canons are interpreted according to the plain meaning of the words given the text and context. Canon law also tells us that we interpret them according to the intent of the lawgiver. So, for example, someone might interpret the actual words of a canon in some obscure way that matches the words themselves, but not the intended meaning (which sometimes we know because it’s obvious, other times we don’t know). That’s why the best one to interpret that canon was Bl John Paul II himself, since he promulgated the law. No one can know what he meant better than he did. That’s why, when this subject comes up, I often refer readers here to *Dies Domini * so that they can read in JPII’s own words how he interpreted the canon that he promulgated:

the provision which allows the obligation to be fulfilled from Saturday evening onwards, starting at the time of First Vespers of Sunday.(87) From a liturgical point of view, in fact, holy days begin with First Vespers.(88)
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

We also need to keep in mind that the liturgical life of the Church must be viewed as an integral whole–meaning that one part of the Church’s liturgy does not conflict with another. The times for Mass and the times for the Hours work together rather than compete. If it’s Sunday according to the Lit. of the Hours, it’s Sunday according to the Mass. Likewise, it cannot be Saturday in one liturgical respect yet Sunday in another. Simply put, if it’s time to pray First Vespers of Sunday, then it’s Sunday. If it is not yet time to pray First Vespers of Sunday, then it’s not yet Sunday.

(87) Cf. Code of Canon Law, Canon 1248, 1; Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, Canon 881, 2.

(88) Cf. Missale Romanum, Normae Universales de Anno Liturgico et de Calendario, 3.
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You’ve written a long response to a question I believe you’ve not understood. I was not questioning what Bl. John Paul II meant by vespere? I was asking what Pius XII’s ap con. Christus Dominus was about. That question is now redundant because I’ve found it and read it.

I know that Evening Prayer should be celebrated in the evening (vespere). I do not believe that’s there a prescribed time for Evening Prayer. Likewise, I cannot see where it says that Mass celebrated after 4.00 p.m. on Saturday counts for Sunday. It seems very clear to me from what I’ve read numerous times on CAF that 4.00 p.m. is deeply ingrained in the minds of US catholics. You won’t find that here in England. As I’ve posted before, my diocese and episcopal conference make no ruling on what time determines whether a Mass on Saturday can count as fulfilling the Sunday obligation.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
You’ve written a long response to a question I believe you’ve not understood. I was not questioning what Bl. John Paul II meant by vespere? I was asking what Pius XII’s ap con. Christus Dominus was about. That question is now redundant because I’ve found it and read it.

I know that Evening Prayer should be celebrated in the evening (vespere). I do not believe that’s there a prescribed time for Evening Prayer. Likewise, I cannot see where it says that Mass celebrated after 4.00 p.m. on Saturday counts for Sunday. It seems very clear to me from what I’ve read numerous times on CAF that 4.00 p.m. is deeply ingrained in the minds of US catholics. You won’t find that here in England. As I’ve posted before, my diocese and episcopal conference make no ruling on what time determines whether a Mass on Saturday can count as fulfilling the Sunday obligation.
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I didn’t think you were questioning JP2. I just included the post for the sake of the overall discussion. Likewise, this post here is just for the sake of the overall discussion.

What I see as the “key words” from JP2 is that the Sunday obligation can be fulfilled from the “time of first vespers onward.” For reasons I’ve already stated I see that “time of first vespers” as the proper interpretation of canon law that says the Sunday obligation can be fulfilled starting on Sat. evening.

So, what exactly and precisely does the Church mean by “vespere” and/or the “time of First Vespers”? In my opinion, 4 PM. Opinion is the key word.

I would not say that it is up to either individual bishops or even bishops conferences to establish the time on Saturday evening that the Sunday obligation can be fulfilled. The law that determines this is a universal law, and I do not see any way that the Church leaves that as a decision to be made by either the ordinary or the conference. Let me also say that I think both are indeed competent to interpret the canon, but interpreting is not the same thing as actually establishing a time. The reason why I mention this is because I do read here (often but not too often) that the local bishop can outright decide what this time would be for his diocese. I would disagree with that, while repeating that I do say he can interpret the Church’s intent.
 
FrDavid96 said:
I didn’t think you were questioning JP2. I just included the post for the sake of the overall discussion. Likewise, this post here is just for the sake of the overall discussion.

What I see as the “key words” from JP2 is that the Sunday obligation can be fulfilled from the “time of first vespers onward.” For reasons I’ve already stated I see that “time of first vespers” as the proper interpretation of canon law that says the Sunday obligation can be fulfilled starting on Sat. evening.

So, what exactly and precisely does the Church mean by “vespere” and/or the “time of First Vespers”? In my opinion, 4 PM. Opinion is the key word.

I would not say that it is up to either individual bishops or even bishops conferences to establish the time on Saturday evening that the Sunday obligation can be fulfilled. The law that determines this is a universal law, and I do not see any way that the Church leaves that as a decision to be made by either the ordinary or the conference. Let me also say that I think both are indeed competent to interpret the canon, but interpreting is not the same thing as actually establishing a time. The reason why I mention this is because I do read here (often but not too often) that the local bishop can outright decide what this time would be for his diocese. I would disagree with that, while repeating that I do say he can interpret the Church’s intent.
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CIC 1983 Can 1248 §1 says: “Præcepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missæ assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico vel ipso die festo vel vespere diei præcedentis”.

In Blessed John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter Dies Domini #49 says “…ac tandem etiam statuendi designationem secundum quam utile tempus ad obligationem explendam iam die Saturni vespera incipere, temporum convenientia facta primis cum dominici diei Vesperis.(87)”. Footnot 87 links to the above cited canon.

I agree that 1) Catholics can fulfil their Sunday obligation on Saturday evening and that 2) First Vespers of the Sunday on Saturday evening marks the start of the liturgical day of Sunday and, therefore, Catholics 3) may fulfil their Sunday obligation at or after the time of First Vespers.

What is not provided is a definitive time for First Vespers. If there is a definitive time: what is it and what is the source in which it can be found? If there is no definitive time for First Vespers, what would be wrong for either a diocesan bishop or an episcopal conference to say in my diocese/our territory First Sunday Vespers must not be celebrated until, say, 5.00 p.m. and thus any Mass celebrated prior to this time will not count as fulfilling the Sunday obligation.

I would like to make it absolutely clear that I am not saying bishops can say Saturday evening Mass cannot count for fulfilling the Sunday obligation. I am saying that if a bishop says in my diocese First Sunday Vespers cannot begin before … that would not be contrary to canon law or Dies Domini.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
CIC 1983 Can 1248 §1 says: “Præcepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missæ assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico vel ipso die festo vel vespere diei præcedentis”.

In Blessed John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter Dies Domini #49 says “…ac tandem etiam statuendi designationem secundum quam utile tempus ad obligationem explendam iam die Saturni vespera incipere, temporum convenientia facta primis cum dominici diei Vesperis.(87)”. Footnot 87 links to the above cited canon.

I agree that 1) Catholics can fulfil their Sunday obligation on Saturday evening and that 2) First Vespers of the Sunday on Saturday evening marks the start of the liturgical day of Sunday and, therefore, Catholics 3) may fulfil their Sunday obligation at or after the time of First Vespers.

What is not provided is a definitive time for First Vespers. If there is a definitive time: what is it and what is the source in which it can be found? If there is no definitive time for First Vespers, what would be wrong for either a diocesan bishop or an episcopal conference to say in my diocese/our territory First Sunday Vespers must not be celebrated until, say, 5.00 p.m. and thus any Mass celebrated prior to this time will not count as fulfilling the Sunday obligation.

I would like to make it absolutely clear that I am not saying bishops can say Saturday evening Mass cannot count for fulfilling the Sunday obligation. I am saying that if a bishop says in my diocese First Sunday Vespers cannot begin before … that would not be contrary to canon law or Dies Domini.
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I think I’m taking us off topic here, but so as not to “avoid the issue” I’ll just say that I’m trying to make a distinction between
a an interpretation of the Church’s laws made by a bishop
b the idea that the bishop is competent to decide for himself whatever time he chooses

It’s the “b” that I encounter sometimes here on CAF. It’s a subtle (in this case) difference between interpreting the law and outright making the law. It is not up to the bishop to “decide” when the Mass can begin, but it is up to the bishop to “interpret” when it can begin.
 
FrDavid96 said:
I think I’m taking us off topic here, but so as not to “avoid the issue” I’ll just say that I’m trying to make a distinction between
a an interpretation of the Church’s laws made by a bishop
b the idea that the bishop is competent to decide for himself whatever time he chooses

It’s the “b” that I encounter sometimes here on CAF. It’s a subtle (in this case) difference between interpreting the law and outright making the law. It is not up to the bishop to “decide” when the Mass can begin, but it is up to the bishop to “interpret” when it can begin.
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OK, so that we don’t get this thread closed I’ve started a new post entitled: “What time on Saturday”. I open it by responding to your above post.🙂
 
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