Holy Eucharist

[toothdigger]

Yes.

So, a person who has been baptized and confirmed in a Protestant church is one of the “Christian faithful”; and when that person decides to convert to Catholicism and dies, that person is essentially already Catholic… yes?

Why would this same person then be kept from the Holy Eucharist? especially since one never knows when or where death is waiting?

 

[toothdigger]

“Can. 923 The Christian faithful can participate in the eucharistic sacrifice and receive holy communion in any Catholic rite, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 844.”

“Can. 843 §1. Sacred ministers cannot deny the sacraments to those who seek them at appropriate times, are properly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them.”

So: what exactly does “without prejudice to the prescript of…” mean?

Same question: What exactly does “without prejudice to the prescript of” Canon law 844 which says that only Catholics may receive the Eucharist. It actually does not mention non-Catholics…

 

[jmcrae]

So, a person who has been baptized and confirmed in a Protestant church is one of the “Christian faithful”; and when that person decides to convert to Catholicism and dies, that person is essentially already Catholic… yes?

It’s similar to “Baptism of Desire.” If a person who wanted to be baptized dies before the Baptism takes place, he would receive Baptism of Desire at the time of death. But not before, so that someone who intends to be baptised can’t just go ahead and start receiving the Sacraments, and say, “Oh, it’s okay because I have baptism of Desire” - no. In the case of the living, we have to do all things in their proper order. But when we die, God supplies everything that we lack.

It’s the same with someone who intends to become Catholic. If they aren’t Catholic yet, then they need to refrain from the Sacraments until such time as they are actually received into the Church. But if they die, then God will receive them into the Church at the moment of death. (But not before that. The living once again must do all things in their proper order.)

Why would this same person then be kept from the Holy Eucharist? especially since one never knows when or where death is waiting?

Because they are required to become Catholic before doing this, by making a Profession of Faith. This is normally done after receiving Catechetical instruction in the faith, so that they know what it is that they are agreeing to.

 

[John_Lilburne]

Does it follow that a Protestant who has decided to convert to Roman Catholicism and believes that the Eucharist is the true body and true blood of the Lord Jesus could at least request to participate in that part of the mass?

And, thank you for the link. I will take a look at it…

Of course they can request it. But the priest should then evaluate the situation with respect to canon 844 §4:
“If there is a danger of death or if, in the judgement of the diocesan Bishop or of the Bishops’ Conference, there is some other grave and pressing need, catholic ministers may lawfully administer these same sacraments to other christians not in full communion with the catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who spontaneously ask for them …”.

In most cases these circumstances would not apply and the answer should be “no”. The priest should explain that if the person wants to become Catholic there is a process for this, leading to the ceremony “Reception of Baptized Christians into the Full Communion of the Catholic Church”. (The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0, page 275).

Until them the person remains a Protestant and canon 844 applies.

 

[jmcrae]

Same question: What exactly does “without prejudice to the prescript of” Canon law 844 which says that only Catholics may receive the Eucharist. It actually does not mention non-Catholics…

If it says that only Catholics may receive the Eucharist, then by definition, non-Catholics may not receive the Eucharist.

Maybe I didn’t understand your question …

 

[jmcrae]

So, a person who has been baptized and confirmed in a Protestant church is one of the “Christian faithful” …]

They may be “Christian,” but they aren’t counted among the faithful, because they are in a state of schism, and in so many cases, they are in the state of both schism and heresy, which are both sins against the faith.

 

[toothdigger]

In the Didache, I found a passage on the Eucharist which implied that anyone who is baptized may partake.

In Pope Paul VI’s DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (1964) I found a passage which implied that a catechumen who has professed his or her intention to join the Catholic faithful has already been accepted by Mother Church.

So… my question is: If one truly believes in the real presence of Christ in that which only appears to be bread and wine, and if one has decided to convert, what prevents one from partaking…

Justin Martyr wrote:

“We call this food Eucharist, and **no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration * and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. *For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Also, a description of the Eucharist as “food” is true in my experience. Once ‘tasted’ it is difficult not to partake for the soul is truly fed by our Lord’s sacrifice…**

 

[toothdigger]

If it says that only Catholics may receive the Eucharist, then by definition, non-Catholics may not receive the Eucharist.

Maybe I didn’t understand your question …

No, you understood. I was just being precise… I realize that it implies that non-Catholics should not receive the Eucharist…

 

[toothdigger]

They may be “Christian,” but they aren’t counted among the faithful, because they are in a state of schism, and in so many cases, they are in the state of both schism and heresy, which are both sins against the faith.

This is the truly hard part for a Protestant-turned-Catholic without having yet gone through the formalities - it is like being brought to life and then being told, ‘oh sorry, you are still dead and can not participate in the life you have chosen…’ :bigyikes: :crying:

 

[toothdigger]

Of course they can request it. But the priest should then evaluate the situation with respect to canon 844 §4:
“If there is a danger of death or if, in the judgement of the diocesan Bishop or of the Bishops’ Conference, there is some other grave and pressing need, catholic ministers may lawfully administer these same sacraments to other christians not in full communion with the catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who spontaneously ask for them …”.

In most cases these circumstances would not apply and the answer should be “no”. The priest should explain that if the person wants to become Catholic there is a process for this, leading to the ceremony “Reception of Baptized Christians into the Full Communion of the Catholic Church”. (The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0, page 275).

Until them the person remains a Protestant and canon 844 applies.

How extraordinarily ironic - UNLESS THE PROTESTANT dies while ‘converting’…

 

[jmcrae]

This is the truly hard part for a Protestant-turned-Catholic without having yet gone through the formalities - it is like being brought to life and then being told, ‘oh sorry, you are still dead and can not participate in the life you have chosen…’ :bigyikes: :crying:

No, no - you’re alive all right. But we still have to get six feet of dirt out of your grave, then pry the lid off of your coffin, and then get you a bath, a shave, and a change of clothes.

 

[toothdigger]

It’s similar to “Baptism of Desire.” If a person who wanted to be baptized dies before the Baptism takes place, he would receive Baptism of Desire at the time of death. But not before, so that someone who intends to be baptised can’t just go ahead and start receiving the Sacraments, and say, “Oh, it’s okay because I have baptism of Desire” - no. In the case of the living, we have to do all things in their proper order. But when we die, God supplies everything that we lack.

It’s the same with someone who intends to become Catholic. If they aren’t Catholic yet, then they need to refrain from the Sacraments until such time as they are actually received into the Church. But if they die, then God will receive them into the Church at the moment of death. (But not before that. The living once again must do all things in their proper order.)

Because they are required to become Catholic before doing this, by making a Profession of Faith. This is normally done after receiving Catechetical instruction in the faith, so that they know what it is that they are agreeing to.

I appreciate this truth; and I am just asking questions. I have no intention of being ‘disobedient’ to Canon law…

 

[toothdigger]

I appreciate this truth; and I am just asking questions. I have no intention of being ‘disobedient’ to Canon law…

Speaking of:

Can. 206 §1**. Catechumens, that is, those who ask by explicit choice under the influence of the Holy Spirit to be incorporated into the Church, are joined to it in a special way. By this same desire, just as by the life of faith, hope, and charity which they lead, they are united with the Church which already cherishes them as its own.**

§2. The Church has a special care for catechumens; while it invites them to lead a life of the gospel and introduces them to the celebration of sacred rites, it already grants them various prerogatives which are proper to Christians.

Canon 206 is what I must have read in Pope Paul VI’s Dogmatic Constitution of 1964.

 

[toothdigger]

No, no - you’re alive all right. But we still have to get six feet of dirt out of your grave, then pry the lid off of your coffin, and then get you a bath, a shave, and a change of clothes.

LOL… that’s good, really! Thing is - I am not a zombie! As you may remember, I am the one who for a long 4 months took (excuse me! received) the Eucharist just about once a week! Now, I feel like I am starving…
:whacky:

 

[jmcrae]

LOL… that’s good, really! Thing is - I am not a zombie!

No, of course not. You’re like poor old Lazarus, who was raised up to life right in the middle of his own funeral. I’ve always wondered what he must have thought.

As you may remember, I am the one who for a long 4 months took (excuse me! received) the Eucharist just about once a week! Now, I feel like I am starving… :whacky:

Keep a diary of this time in your life. If, in the future, after you’ve been Catholic for a long time, you ever catch yourself taking the Eucharist for granted, get out the diary, and remember this feeling.

 

[Walking_Home]

I think “properly disposed” means understanding oneself to not be in a state of mortal sin, as would apply to a Catholic going to Communion.

One commentary about “demostration of the Catholic faith” has:
“… This does not mean that the person needs detailed knowledge about the theology of the sacrament in question, but only that the recipient believes in the essential meaning of the sacraments. For example, in reference to the reception of the Eucharist, it suffices that the recipients believe the consecrated bread and wine is spiritual food, the body and blood of the Lord. (See cans. 889, §1 and 913, §2). …”
(John Huels, The Pastoral Companion, Franciscan Press, 1995, ISBN 0-8199-0968-8, page 347.)

The canons he refers to, 889 and 913, could be looked up in the Code of Canon Law at vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM .

---

It is not that simple–it goes deeper than that. Belief in the ministerial priesthood is needed and within this confession.

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/__P6.HTM

1. … in certain particular cases, to administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, Penance and Anointing of the Sick to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church but who greatly desire to receive these sacraments, freely request them and manifest the faith which the Catholic Church professes with regard to these sacraments. Conversely, in specific cases and in particular circumstances, Catholics too can request these same sacraments from ministers of Churches in which these sacraments are valid”.97

These conditions, from which no dispensation can be given, must be carefully respected, even though they deal with specific individual cases, because the denial of one or more truths of the faith regarding these sacraments and, among these, the truth regarding the need of the ministerial priesthood for their validity,COLOR=“DarkRed”] renders the person asking improperly disposed to legitimately receiving them.