B
billcu1
Guest
Why did God chose Joseph through the rod that budded? And why was Joseph being so much older, if it mattered, considered one of the eligible men for Mary?
- Status
D
DavidFilmer
Guest
These accounts come from an ancient Christian writing called the Protoevangelium, commonly attributed to the Apostle James (and sometimes called the “Gospel of James.”
This text is not considered canonical or authoritative. However, it is very old (dating back to around 150 AD), and thus might contain pious beliefs and traditions known to the people of that time.
To my knowledge, there is nothing in this text that is overtly contrary to Doctrine, so Catholics are perfectly free to believe the story about the budding staff and the advanced age of Joseph (which might account for why he did not appear to be alive during Our Lord’s later life). But neither idea can be considered a teaching of the Church.
This text is not considered canonical or authoritative. However, it is very old (dating back to around 150 AD), and thus might contain pious beliefs and traditions known to the people of that time.
To my knowledge, there is nothing in this text that is overtly contrary to Doctrine, so Catholics are perfectly free to believe the story about the budding staff and the advanced age of Joseph (which might account for why he did not appear to be alive during Our Lord’s later life). But neither idea can be considered a teaching of the Church.
F
FrenzyJen
Guest
I heard it speculated that Joseph began being represented as an older fellow around the time the church started being challenged about Mary’s perpetual virginity. Somehow the idea that she married an older gentleman made it easier to defend their unconsummated union, because he was perhaps too feeble or something.
J
judynurse
Guest
I doubt that Joseph was “feeble” or too old for marital relations. After all, he supported Mary and Jesus as a “carpenter”, at least until Jesus was past 12 years old. In the original language of the time/area (a form of Aramaic) the word “carpenter” also meant “builder” or “laborer”. Since these were poor workers, most of the “building” they did was with stone, with only a little wood work, (such as beams of wood to support the roof, which was usually used as a place to dry vegetables and fruits for winter) with the exception of plows and oxen yokes. This is really hard, physical labor, and at that time, usually paid “in kind”, i.e. with vegetables or wool from sheep, rather than with coins. He couldn’t have been very feeble at the time of their marriage and done this type of work for at least 13 years after Mary conceived Jesus!
Have never read the ‘Gospel of James’, but agree it probably is more a result of local beliefs and traditions than actual fact. However, it is likely that Joseph was more than likely at least 30 years old at the time of his betrothal to Mary, since men were generally not encouraged to marry until they were older, whereas women (girls) were usually married at 13 or 14 during that period, so they mostly all had “older” husbands. Partly this was so a man could establish himself in a craft or work, and partly because the girls needed to be very young, since death in childbirth was much more common then, and the man might need at least to marry twice or three times to have a good chance of having children. Women were often Grandmothers by the time they were in their early 30’s, provided they survived the multiple childbirths which were common then. Read in Genesis, etc… the days when a woman could be with her husband to prevent him from becoming “unclean”. It works out almost perfectly to her fertile periods each month, so pregnancy was likely except during the 3 years of nursing the child. Also, there was a pressure to bear at least one son, and preferably 2 or 3. With infant mortality, she might have 2 live children grow to maturity for every 5 she gave birth to, and often only 2 adult children out of 10 or 12!
Have never read the ‘Gospel of James’, but agree it probably is more a result of local beliefs and traditions than actual fact. However, it is likely that Joseph was more than likely at least 30 years old at the time of his betrothal to Mary, since men were generally not encouraged to marry until they were older, whereas women (girls) were usually married at 13 or 14 during that period, so they mostly all had “older” husbands. Partly this was so a man could establish himself in a craft or work, and partly because the girls needed to be very young, since death in childbirth was much more common then, and the man might need at least to marry twice or three times to have a good chance of having children. Women were often Grandmothers by the time they were in their early 30’s, provided they survived the multiple childbirths which were common then. Read in Genesis, etc… the days when a woman could be with her husband to prevent him from becoming “unclean”. It works out almost perfectly to her fertile periods each month, so pregnancy was likely except during the 3 years of nursing the child. Also, there was a pressure to bear at least one son, and preferably 2 or 3. With infant mortality, she might have 2 live children grow to maturity for every 5 she gave birth to, and often only 2 adult children out of 10 or 12!
S
Starrsmother
Guest
I never heard these legends about St. Joseph and the budding rod when I was growing up, so I already had a picture of him in my mind before I heard this stuff–most of which I don’t particularly believe either. My Dad was born in 1901 and was in his 30’s when he married my mom–who was 15. My Dad was just a plain carpenter all his life–not a “contractor” or an engineer"–just a carpenter who worked with tools and his hands. Interestingly enough, Jospheffa was his mother’s name and Joseph was my Dad’s confirmation name–and the legal middle name he used all is life and that’s on his tombstone even today! So, guess who I picture St. Joseph as like?
R
Razanir
Guest
Following the thread to see where this discussion goes. I’m particularly interested, because it mentions Joseph having sons from a previous marriage, which could be an interesting way to reconcile Mary’s perpetual virginity with the somewhat-common Protestant claim that “brothers” really did mean Jesus’ brothers.
Also, my question that lead me to this thread: Did anyone in the Church’s early history ever regard James as canonical?
- Status