Holy Father makes more moves re sacred music

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Grace and Peace,

I think this is wonderful.

Peace and God Bless.
 
How is this going to affect the guitar strummers and hand clappers in the US ?
 
tom.wineman said:
How is this going to affect the guitar strummers and hand clappers in the US ?
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Too early to say. I’m hoping that he writes an encyclical on sacred music to clear up all the ambiguities and discrepancies found in the current documents.
 
It’s about time. I can only hope that we soon reach the juncture where we can put the St. Louis Jesuit TV theme jingles on the musical trash heap of history.

One observation: not sure if it’s the fault of Sandro Magister (author of the article) or Matthew Sherry (the translator), but there is no “pope Ratzinger”, as is referred to repeatedly in the article. The Holy Father’s name is Pope Benedict XVI.
 
While I am pleased by this news, there has to be a way and a place for even as one poster put it… guitar strummers? I love gregorian chant and I love latin hymns and I love the older english hymns too… but even saying that, I will admit, I have grown up in the era of guitar groups and was even in one when I was 15 yo. Sacred music is sacred music… and it can be done very nicely even with guitar accompaniment. Now the happy clappy stuff… I couldn’t say buh bye fast enough!
 
VociMike said:
Too early to say. I’m hoping that he writes an encyclical on sacred music to clear up all the ambiguities and discrepancies found in the current documents.
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Liturgicam Authenticam also had a section that deals with Liturgucal Music.

If you remember this document, it was the guiding force in the new translation of the Roman Missal.

So far, the Bishops have only concentrated on how it affects the translations of Liturgical texts (and that is the more important item), but the nature of the document will require an examination of liturgical music, and it seems there will now be a Vatican department that will guide this in much the same was as Vox Clara guides the translation effort.

👍
 
Liturgical music will be an item on the agenda at the upcoming Bishops’ Conference in the United States.
 
Wolseley said:
One observation: not sure if it’s the fault of Sandro Magister (author of the article) or Matthew Sherry (the translator), but there is no “pope Ratzinger”, as is referred to repeatedly in the article. The Holy Father’s name is Pope Benedict XVI.
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Judging by the tenor of the article (admiring, not derisive at all), it seems to be a term of endearment… in the European style. I seem to recall that many Europeans who loved JPII referred to him as Wojtyla.
 
Well I didn’t see anything in the article that said the Pope is returning the liturgical music of the Catholic Church throughout the world, back to the older classical and Gregorian Chant styles, moving toward, prohibiting guitars or the contemporary styles that is being currently being played in many Churches in the USA and Canada.

I know fundamentalist can’t wait for the day where there will be no music, unless its Gregorian Chant, but thats a pipe dream that will never come to pass. I wonder if they’ll remain Catholic through it all?

Jim
 
Perhaps I read a different article. All the link refers to is revitalizing the grandeur of the liturgy at St. Peter’s and in papal Masses. I take it no one here would repeat to the Holy Father the refrain I have seen repeated directed at guitars, “It’s the Mass, not a concert.”:rolleyes:
 
tom.wineman said:
How is this going to affect the guitar strummers and hand clappers in the US ?
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Unfortunately not one bit. Guitar Strummers will probably be the dominant form of music in the US and Canada for years to come. No matter what the Pope says. His authority in the US, UK and Canada doesn’t have the same meaning as it did before Vatican 2. Don’t get to estatic yet. There is plenty of resistance to his recent liturgical moves from many quarters of the world. Vatican 2 pretty much put permanent damage on the liturgy in my opinion. Unfortunately most Catholics prefer a Protestantized Mass and theology. We need something dramatic to change that attitude. When was the last time you heard Gregorian chant in Mass, apart from a CD.
 
Hello,
JimR-OCDS said:
Well I didn’t see anything in the article that said the Pope is returning the liturgical music of the Catholic Church throughout the world, back to the older classical and Gregorian Chant styles, moving toward, prohibiting guitars or the contemporary styles that is being currently being played in many Churches in the USA and Canada.

I know fundamentalist can’t wait for the day where there will be no music, unless its Gregorian Chant, but thats a pipe dream that will never come to pass. I wonder if they’ll remain Catholic through it all?

Jim
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I think what the Pope is doing is leading by example. I think he is trying to show all Catholics how lofty the Mass can be.

Now, as I have said on other threads - I do not like guitar music during the Mass. I do like it outside of Mass - I play guitar (Old World folk, American folk, etc.). I do not condemn the use of a guitar at Mass, and even less so if the Bishop has actively approved it. I would take issue if a grunge or metal rock band set-up for the Mass - since that would go far beyond anything a rational person could construe as solemn and sacred.

I also do not like Praise and Worship music during the Mass, as a rule (I take this on a case by case, because I have heard one or two that I thought were appropriate for the Mass). I do not find this style of music conducive to proper participation in the Liturgy to the same eminent degree as Gregorian Chant/Sacred Polyphony, etc. Again, I don’t condemn a parish if they use Praise and Worship music. And there are several of these type songs that I enjoy listening to outside of Mass.

Now, you mentioned only Gregorian Chant being used in the future - or so some wish. But what about now? There has been an almost total abandonment of this style of traditional Catholic music in favor of (in the majority of cases, as I have seen) Praise and Worship type music. Now, I ask you if this extreme seems proper? Do you think that a style of music that has served the Church for the better part of her life (~1400 years) should be so casually dismissed? Do you think that Praise and Worship music should be the exclusive and first choice of music for the Catholic Church and that guitars should have pride of place among instruments?
 
JMJ_coder said:
Hello,

I think what the Pope is doing is leading by example. I think he is trying to show all Catholics how lofty the Mass can be.

Now, as I have said on other threads - I do not like guitar music during the Mass. I do like it outside of Mass - I play guitar (Old World folk, American folk, etc.). I do not condemn the use of a guitar at Mass, and even less so if the Bishop has actively approved it. I would take issue if a grunge or metal rock band set-up for the Mass - since that would go far beyond anything a rational person could construe as solemn and sacred.

I also do not like Praise and Worship music during the Mass, as a rule (I take this on a case by case, because I have heard one or two that I thought were appropriate for the Mass). I do not find this style of music conducive to proper participation in the Liturgy to the same eminent degree as Gregorian Chant/Sacred Polyphony, etc. Again, I don’t condemn a parish if they use Praise and Worship music. And there are several of these type songs that I enjoy listening to outside of Mass.

Now, you mentioned only Gregorian Chant being used in the future - or so some wish. But what about now? There has been an almost total abandonment of this style of traditional Catholic music in favor of (in the majority of cases, as I have seen) Praise and Worship type music. Now, I ask you if this extreme seems proper? Do you think that a style of music that has served the Church for the better part of her life (~1400 years) should be so casually dismissed? Do you think that Praise and Worship music should be the exclusive and first choice of music for the Catholic Church and that guitars should have pride of place among instruments?
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But, wouldn’t having all “lofty” mass music be sending the wrong message? Wouldn’t that be a form of Liturgical vanity when overused? One of the main points of the mass is to spiritually strengthen the people, and having “lofty” mass music would send a signal that they need to “stay in their place”, like in the old days, pre-VII, where in the TLM, the people were secondary to the priest and there was something missing.
 
Hello,
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
But, wouldn’t having all “lofty” mass music be sending the wrong message? Wouldn’t that be a form of Liturgical vanity when overused? One of the main points of the mass is to spiritually strengthen the people, and having “lofty” mass music would send a signal that they need to “stay in their place”, like in the old days, pre-VII, where in the TLM, the people were secondary to the priest and there was something missing.
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Not at all.

There are several points here. The first is that the Liturgy is not just some get together. It is the commemoration of the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. It is the moment when time doesn’t exist and Heaven touches earth and the entire Church comes together to bow down in adoration before the Son of God. As Saint John Chrysostom said: “When you are before the altar where Christ reposes, you ought no longer to think that you are amongst men; but believe that there are troops of angels and archangels standing by you, and trembling with respect before the sovereign Master of Heaven and earth. Therefore, when you are in church, be there in silence, fear, and veneration.” There can be no risk of liturgical vanity in the use of Gregorian Chant - or other forms of sacred and lofty music - in the Liturgy.

Secondly, the notion of people being secondary to the Priest. Well, it should be noted that there is an ontological difference between the two. There has been a push be some to make the two equal - to clericalize the laity and laicize the clergy. God established a ministerial priesthood to lead His community on earth in worship.

Third, it must not be thought that the use of traditional music would make people think in terms of “stay in your place” in a negative way. It is true that in some respects, we should revert to the former practices. Today it very often to encounter the attitude that everyone needs to have there own special and unique part in the Mass and that any function is open to the laity to perform. This is simply not true. There are roles in the Mass and not everyone is qualified to take part of all roles. One role is that of the Priest - and no layman has the right to think they can infringe on the sacred duties of the Priest. Another role is that of the choir. To assume this role - that is to join the choir - a person must have musical talent. A tone-deaf person should not be cantoring! Another - larger and the most common role is that of the parishoner. Their role is to participate in the Mass as their role commands. This includes saying the responses proper to them, silently listening to the prayers and readings and homiles, etc… If a person is fulfilling their role as a lay member silently sitting attentively in prayer at the Mass, they are not missing something, put fulfilling their role at the Mass.
 
zerocrossing said:
Judging by the tenor of the article (admiring, not derisive at all), it seems to be a term of endearment… in the European style. I seem to recall that many Europeans who loved JPII referred to him as Wojtyla.
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Correct. It is Italian tradition to refer to the pope by his last name. They are not intending or showing any disrespect.
 
bkovacs said:
When was the last time you heard Gregorian chant in Mass, apart from a CD.
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Almost every Sunday at our high mass. 👍 There are a few other parishes in the city that also do it.

But I really think it depends on who is the bishop or archbishop. He sets the tone of what he wants in all aspects for the diocese. When our archbishop first came, he celebrated every mass at the Cathedral and was able to experience the different music programs. That weekend, the “youth” folk group (group of 40ish people) was playing the 5:00 Sunday mass. That week, the group was suddenly disbanded and they haven’t played at the Cathedral since then. Attendance at mass hasn’t decreased for that mass either. But it is a different dynamic since the parish is actually very small and most of the congregants are visitors from around the country and the world. Even the liturgical music choices for the archdiocesasan events have gone from really bad and cheesy to actually a very nice mix of old and new - and most is good sacred music or passable. Again - a change in leadership caused this change.

I also have a friend (late 20s) who started up an all-men’s chant schola. He had his first mass with the group this past Sunday and it was so much of a success that they will be coming back to this church regularly. Anyway, he’s getting the ball running. I’m not against other forms of excellent sacred music as I love our vast heritage of sacred music, but it will be very nice to hear chant done more often at other parishes.

So, I’m optimistic that mediocrity (whether in poorly done chant/polyphony or classical to poorly done modern music) is slowly going out the door. It’s taking time, but a lot of people I know and have spoken with in my diocese are actually getting tired of the current stuff regularly used during mass. The quality is getting better little by little at more parishes.
 
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
But, wouldn’t having all “lofty” mass music be sending the wrong message? Wouldn’t that be a form of Liturgical vanity when overused?
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I don’t think so. Also, I don’t believe that is lofty music. To some people it might be considered as such because they were raised to think that way. When I taught music to children at a Catholic school, I worked towards equalizing so-called “lofty” music - to show them that it can be very palletable and actually enjoyed. I know it is a bias against that type of music that is sometimes unknowingly and innocently fostered because my younger students (ages 3-8/9) loved it just as equally as other music. Whereas the older ones (9/10 to 14) already had this idea of what the music stood for, as well as peer pressure. I remember that myself where I grew up with an equal love of rock/folk(real folk)/ jazz and classical music and secretly liked opera, but didn’t want to admit that to my peers as they already had an idea of what it was. (Although, I admit, I would not throw a Verdi or R. Strauss opera upon young ears. It is known that most young children prefer lighter, sweeter voices from the earlier periods of music history - they prefer the Baroque and early Classical periods of vocal music.)

It is perfectly understandable why people would equate this music as lofty as many times it was the elite who sponsored the composers and creators of other forms of art to create practically perfect forms of beauty. At the same time, these artists created many of these works for everyone to become inspired spiritually or emotionally and to enjoy. They didn’t differentiate even if they knew from whom they got their bread.

I agree that we must be vigilant with being humble when doing any of this, because it can be human nature to go overboard. But it is also the same with going the other way. People had gone too much out of their way to make everything as mediocre as possible. That is just as bad as someone trying to outdo another with the best piece of sacred art or music. My generation grew up with that. I’m not saying that it didn’t occur with past generations. There certainly was really shmarmy, corny, bad religious/sacred music in the church in the past. But they still had the music which lasted for generations, and fortunately, the bad stuff just died out. My generation, didn’t even get a taste of the lasting liturgical music. It’s still too early to see what will last from my generation, although, I’m sooooo thankful some of the junk I was forced to endure in the 80s and 90s are going out the window.

To me, as long as we keep a humble heart and a vigilant eye, there shouldn’t be a problem of “loftiness”.
 
VociMike said:
The reform of the reform in sacred music is building…

chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/171962?eng=y
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Forgot to add that this was an optimistic and wonderful article to read. It’s nice to see that this music is being restored back where it was originally intended to be used rather than in a concert hall. I love listening to this on my cd or in a concert, but it makes the most sense and gives the most spiritual inspiration when I can hear it during a mass.
 
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