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lak611
Guest
No, you are missing the point. I gave you the Bible verses that show what I am talking about.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The Catholic Church believes in three major things, Sacred Scripture (Bible), Sacred Tradition, and Magisterium (Bishops in Union with the Pope).
The Traditions which we hold like Perpetual Virginity of Mary, Papal Infallibility, and others were revealed to us from Patristic sources. These aren’t man-made. God reveal them.
Many of the Catholic core doctrines are even implied in the Bible but are not as explicit as you want it to me.
We can discuss this but this has nothing to do with the topic.
Holy Father is the topic here, we call Pope Benedict XVI Holy Father because we honor him as a our spiritual father. We do not put him above God. He is the Servant of the Servants of God.
He is a good man.
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guanophore
Guest
mfm, Jesus gave the keys to Peter. Yes, the Spirit can, and does, lead us into all truth. But that leading will not take us away from the authority which He has established.
No, I don’t think anyone here woudl say that salvation can only happen through CC and sacraments. God gave us the sacraments as a means of His grace, and the Church as the ordinary means whereby we come into all truth. He is not bound by this, though, and can save whoever He wants, how ever He wants.
How is it arrogant to say we are separated? Do you perceive us to be in communion?!
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guanophore
Guest
Ahhh. So, a devout man, who was graced by God due to his prayers and almsgiving to be the first Gentile convert is so ignorant that he cannot tell a man from God? Does not know he should worship only God? How did his holiness get God’s attention, if he was such an ignoramous? Maybe he could worship the trees in his yard by mistake?
Because there WAS no other church! All christians were Catholic for the first thousand years, until there was a schism with the Eastern churches. Then there were only two divisions for the next 600 years. Your faith tradition is “new”.
You are right on with this one, mfm. It is all about interpretation, and you are right that we will get nowhere on account of it. Your personal understanding with the verses contradicts 2000 years of teaching we have from Jesus and the Apostles. Your rejection of that authority to interpret the book that they wrote themselves (and therefore better knew what they intended) will result in us getting nowhere.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Could be because St. Paul took it that way in 1st Corinthians 11:23-30.
Here again you misrepresent Catholic belief, since we do indeed believe that we come boldly to the throne of grace…in exactly the way that the New Testament specifies for us to do so.
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guanophore
Guest
I think the fundamental problem is what you THINK we believe, rather than what we really believe. No one here thinks that Peter was not a fisherman, or that he is better than anyone else.
Actually, it is not we who elevated Peter, it was Jesus. We respect His choice, is all. He knows best!
We are all called to be saints, and everyone has the same chance to do this. We may not all have the same office of Peter, or gifts, but Jesus has a special place for each of us in His Body.
I can make no sense out of this paragraph at all, except that you are comparing Catholics to Pharisees, it seems. You also seem to imply that Catholics do not see the power of God in their lives, which seems awfully judgmental of you to me. You don’t even know me! How do you know what God is doing in my life?!?!
I believe you are right. Perhaps you could start by showing us an example, instead of bringing in the spirit of the accuser of the brethren, comparing Catholics to pharisees, and assuming that, because we are Catholic, we have not the power of God in our lives?
Careful with that “fathers” now!
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guanophore
Guest
There you go making more assumptions about me, revmarty!! You have NO IDEA who I am, and what kind of Bible study I have done, or which glasses I have worn when reading. Speaking of arrogance!
I think you have a misunderstanding about how doctrine is defined. It comes from the revelation of God, not the opinion of man. God gave the church the authority to declare things, and the process for determining which is a saintly life is very long and detailed, and done by experts. So, yes, I trust that the church has given me something I can safely believe.
That is good, revmarty, because it is not for sale. In fact, if you ever do want it, you will have to sell out your whole self to get it. I agree with you that it took millennia, and willing vessels. The vessels that penned the New Testament were all Catholic, and the contents was collected and canonized by Catholics. Catholics also preserved that word faithfully through the centuries so that you could have it in front of you today. It is a Catholic book, therefore, nothing in it contradicts the deposit of faith given to the Catholic church.
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Church_Militant
Guest
*]We don’t have any "man made dogmas.
*]The Bible nowhere tells us that it is the sole authority. (Please feel free to prove that wrong in another thread if you can.)
*]So you are saying that one must be baptized in order to be saved?
You say that all you believe comes only from the Bible and yet in professing that belief you do so in a dogma that is not Biblically based? That’s messed up…
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guanophore
Guest
Because that is what Jesus meant, and that is what the Apostles believed and taught, and handed on to their successors.
It is a bold struggle to go to confession. I hope one day you can experience this for yourself, as well as the grace that flows from it.
Again you are making assumptions, revmarty. You don’t know who hear has laid hands on the sick and seen them recover. It is very judgemental of you to do so, and your rude comments about the sacred elements of the Mass will get you censured, or eventually banned from this forum. And being off topic will get this thread closed!
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hosemonkey
Guest
Revmarty, who’s screen name probably implies actual or wannabe protestant clergyhood, encompasses the entire spectrum of protestant(particularly Evangelical) ignorance regarding Catholic belief. If it in the Bible, they believe it. But, if it does not conform with their particular interpretation, it may be literal OR symbolic, depending how near it may to Catholic belief, THEN it is most likely just symbolic, BUT every word of the Bible is true, EXCEPT when there is a conflict between Catholic belief and protestant belief, THEN it is certainly open to interpretation. WHEW! They are as rigid as card-carrying Communists in this stance, as a rule. I have met very few, who, left on their own will deviate from the party line. Some, though, if you can get them aside, will listen. And, If you can plant a seed, will actually allow themselves to be enlightened. RevMarty seems a decent fellow (except when he is defaming the Holy Eucharist) Perhaps there is hope.There you go making more assumptions about me, revmarty!! You have NO IDEA who I am, and what kind of Bible study I have done, or which glasses I have worn when reading. Speaking of arrogance!
I think you have a misunderstanding about how doctrine is defined. It comes from the revelation of God, not the opinion of man. God gave the church the authority to declare things, and the process for determining which is a saintly life is very long and detailed, and done by experts. So, yes, I trust that the church has given me something I can safely believe.
That is good, revmarty, because it is not for sale. In fact, if you ever do want it, you will have to sell out your whole self to get it. I agree with you that it took millennia, and willing vessels. The vessels that penned the New Testament were all Catholic, and the contents was collected and canonized by Catholics. Catholics also preserved that word faithfully through the centuries so that you could have it in front of you today. It is a Catholic book, therefore, nothing in it contradicts the deposit of faith given to the Catholic church.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Is easiest answer is this:
Just as “Yes Jesus loves me, Yes Jesus loves me, for the Bible tells me so”
“Yes he meant the CC, Yes he meant the CC, for the Bible tells me so”
Let me give you a Navy Nuclear Power answer.
Document it, Document it, Document it!
If you claim you did something and did not document it then it did not happen.
In the real world it’s called a “Paper Trail”.
That is what the Catholic Church possessess above all other counterfiets. A Paper Trial.
Most Priests can be traced back to Peter via a succession of documents. No one else can make that claim.
All Historical documents show that only one church existed unto the schism and only 2 churches existed up to the Martin Luther’s revolt.
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mercygate
Guest
Right! We DO see it through Catholic Church colored glasses! If you look at the signatures of many posters here, you will see “Tiber Swim Team” – many of us are converts who came into the Church out of “Bible only” traditions. We learned the Bible, but when we discovered the Catholic Church, we learned how the Bible and the Church, in her doctrine and in her liturgies form a unified whole. There is a fullness and an authenticity of life in Christ that we missed before. Not that we were without grace, without faith, without knowledge of Christ: I do not say that. I say that in the unbroken historical context of Catholic teaching and worship, the mind of Christ becomes accessible in a much more intimate way.
It isn’t just “someone” – it is the Church through her teaching authority conferred by Christ at the Great Commission. Remember, Marty, only the Eleven were on that mountain. To teach something that the Apostles and their successors, the bishops of the Church, do not teach is to counterfeit the Gospel.
This is hardly why we believe the teachings of our faith.
First hand? No. We receive the word both through the writings and from those who pass along the faith by their God-given authority.
You seem very sure of that, but it seems that you do not underbut what you are selling, I cant buy.
thank youSelling? We are not “selling.” A favorite text among Catholics is Isaiah 55:1-3:
**"Ho, every one who thirsts, **
**come to the waters;
and he who has no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without price.
Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread,
and your labor for that which does not satisfy?
Hearken diligently to me, and eat what is good,
and delight yourselves in fatness.
Incline your ear, and come to me;
hear, that your soul may live.
**
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guanophore
Guest
Clearly this is not true! This whole thread denies the commandments of scripture, for example:
17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;
1 Tim 5:17
What is the term “holy father”, if not a term of double honor?
Yes, I do see that.
That defamation has been very painful to me. On the other hand, I used to be a bible thumping pentecostal fundamentalist, so I know how it is.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Thanks CM, I can see by your testimony the you love the Lord a great deal, AWESOME! a couple things I’d like to higlight out of one of the paragraphs…
I am Catholic** because I know and believe with all my heart and soul that the Catholic Church IS the New Testament church and I believe **that the Eucharist is everything that the church teaches it is, the same as the early church did…all the way back to the last supper and the 6th chapter of the Gospel of St. John. **I believe it’s really **the body and blood of our risen Lord because St. Paul said that if you take communion while living in sin that you become guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, and that wouldn’t be possible if His body and blood weren’t really present in the form of bread and wine….
The reason I’ve highlighted some things in red, CM is because you guys question how I can use my personal interpretation to decipher scripture and I say I am being led by** the HS…Is it not true that you used **personal interpretation and feel you were led by the HS in order that you believe the CC is the true church??
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Such as? and how do you know?
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, I think each one has to come to believe on the inside for themselves. But that is not the only witness there is. We have the benefit of external witnesses too, like the scripture, the teaching of the magesterium, the early fathers, and the Sacred Tradition. We have the promise of Christ that He will preserve the Church in all truth. Personal experience is important, but it has to be interpreted in a consistent way with all the other witnesses that have been given. I read in an earlier post that you felt you were dealing with a lot of “attacks”. I know I have been forthright, but I am not attacking YOU. I am making a defense for my faith against the errors that you are spreading. I think you arrived at your beliefs through no fault of your own, and that you are sincere in your faith, passionate, and obviously want to spread truth (at least, correcting our errors is why you said you are here) and I respect that.
1 John 5:8
“There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree”
You mean, how do I know that some Sacred Tradition did not get written, or how do I know which Tradition is Sacred? We have an unbroken line back to the apostles, and we understand the writings in the light of what they taught, that is how we know. They taught from the beginning that the bread and the wine BECOME the body and blood. The testimony to this goes right back to the mouth of Jesus, unbroken. That is how we know.
I think this is an excellent question. Jesus decided that we needed it, and that is why He set it up that way. He knew a head of time that when people read the words, they would take them out of context. That is why He taught that, when there was a dispute, it should be taken to the church. He gave the church the authority to properly interpret the written word, and the authority to settle disputes. Those that reject the Apostolic authority reject the method by which Jesus intended to preserve unity in the body. That is why there is so much disunity in christendom today.
As you have correctly noted, well intentioned people, all being led by the HS can come up with opposite conclusions. That is because our understanding of scripture is based on personal experience, education (or lack therof) and the filters we use. Individually, we are all fallible.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
How do you know what Jesus taught?
He sent the HS, that’s whose in charge. Sometimes it seems you guys forget that Christ is a living GOD!
Why would we need this lineage of people? when Christ gave us the HS?
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mercygate
Guest
Is it really only personal? If “personally” I believe in the law of gravity, does that constitute personal judgment?
When Catholics believe that the teaching authority of the Church is legitimate, we base that belief on Scripture (which we trust by warrant of the Church based on historical authenticity), we trust the continuous and continuously documented teaching of the Church descended from the documented lineage of the Apostles through the Apostolic Church.
The teachings of the Church also withstand the test of reason. History, tradition, and reason are three powerful threads of witness to our faith, which we receive (as you do) as a free gift from God.
But our faith is a reasonable faith; it includes the incarnational component of flesh (in the person of all the witnesses from Calvary to Pentecost and down through the ages unbroken), intellect and will.
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mercygate
Guest
You are claiming that the Holy Spirit does not work through men? You are claiming that the Holy Spirit might work through YOU but you have no confidence that he can work through anybody else.
I reiterate my old lineage: Mt. 28:19-20. Only 11 present commissioned to baptize and TEACH.
Jn 17 & the promise by Crhist to the 11 of guidance into all the truth by the Holy Spirit.
Acts 1: Matthias is enrolled among the 11 – continuity of apostolic authority.
Documented lineage and continuity of doctrine and “person” of the bishops of the Apostolic Churches down to this day.
That is the historical/scriptural core of the Catholic witness that the Catholic Church IS the Church – HIS Church – that Jesus promised to build upon Peter.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
When making my personal decision(interpretation) to hold my views I relied on my imperfect discernment, an imperfect translation of the Bible, imperfect history, and imperfect tradition to come to my views of Sola Scripture.
When you made your personal decision(interpretation) to hold your views, you relied on your imperfect discernment, an imperfect translation of the Bible, imperfect history, and imperfect tradition to come to your views of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
The ONLY difference is that you hold tradition and scripture equally and we do not. That is the only diffference.
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