holy father?

[estesbob]

Can you cite me any Traditions that are not recorded in scripture, but have been considered the “word of God” since the apostles… and give some proof as such?

Trinity

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Trinity

OKAY BOB!

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen." (2 Corinthians 13:14) 

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matthew 28:19) 

"Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." (Isaiah 48:16) 

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near...For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father." (Ephesians 2:13-18) 

"But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:20-21) 

"This Jesus God has raised up...Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear." (Acts 2:32-33

 

[estesbob]

OKAY BOB!

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.” (2 Corinthians 13:14)

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…” (Matthew 28:19)

“Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.” (Isaiah 48:16)

“But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near…For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.” (Ephesians 2:13-18)

“But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.” (Jude 1:20-21)

“This Jesus God has raised up…Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.” (Acts 2:32-33

Where does it say in any of this there are three persons in one God.? But it has been accepted since the time of the Apostles.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Where does it say in any of this there are three persons in one God.? But it has been accepted since the time of the Apostles.

1 John 5:7

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[mercygate]

And I said NOT recorded in scripture…

Infant baptism is intimated in Scripture – not just in that passage in Luke, which doesn’t say much one way or the other, but rather in those passages where “households” were baptized – the presumption (not explicitly laid out in exact words) being that households would include children.

Are you saying then, that Scripture alone is suffices to indicate that infant baptism is acceptable? That would surprise me since your position on other issues is more in alignment with what I generally associate with a “believers’ baptism” frame of reference.

 

[mercygate]

1 John 5:7

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Ah. The Johannine comma. This appears in none of the Greek manuscripts and only in late mediaeval ones. Check this Protestant reference: bible-researcher.com/comma.html

The RSV (Protestant translation) for vss 7 & 8 is:

1. And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
2. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.

 

[estesbob]

1 John 5:7

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

HMMM- Heres the NIV version:

6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8thea] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.!

New American Standard:

6This is the One who came (L)by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is (M)the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7For there are (N)three that testify

The only one I can find that uses your translation is the original King James Bible.

Of course this once again highlights the problem inherent with Sola Scriptura. its not only whos interperation do we use but also who’s translation do we use…

 

[mercygate]

OKAY BOB!

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen." (2 Corinthians 13:14) 

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matthew 28:19) 

"Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." (Isaiah 48:16) 

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near...For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father." (Ephesians 2:13-18) 

"But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:20-21) 

"This Jesus God has raised up...Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear." (Acts 2:32-33

Good work. These are some of the classic texts all Christians use in discerning the doctrine of the Trinity. But to get the full-blown Chalcedonian definition, you need something outside of Scripture. Remember the Nicene formulation introduces the word “homoousion.” None of these scriptures specifically lays out the divinity of the Holy Spirit (remember the papyri/mss had no capital letters. THAT is a tradition!

 

[JoeyWarren]

Luke18:
15
3 4 People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them, and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them.
16
Jesus, however, called the children to himself and said, "Let the children come to me and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

I SEE NO intimation of baptism here! can you spell it out?

Baptists will deny that this even alludes to infant baptism.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
And I said NOT recorded in scripture…

The Trinitarian Belief is not recorded. No where in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost is a separate entity.

A completely literal veiw of scriture shows that the Trinity is as farfetched as you claim the Primacy of Peter is.

But I believe in a trinitarian God because the church tells me so, no other reason.

I can defend Marian doctrines better than I could defend the Trinitarian Doctrine.

 

[revmarty]

Ok, you’ve said the HS doesn’t contradict Himself, and that the fault of contradiction is human…could there be something wrong with your falliable (which you acknowledge as such) interpretation? Hmmm…

Please answer my question about our Holy Father.

How come one can call your pastor a “Pastor” or “Reverend” but Catholics are seen as elitist, even unbiblical for calling our Pope Holy Fathers as an expression of spiritual fatherhood and honor? Do you not see the contradiction here?

Ephesians 4:11 Says he gave some as aspostles, teachers, prophets, and pastors, even evangelist. but not Popes or Holy Father.

I guess that is why we call them pastors, not because they have ultimate discression and the last Word but because HS gave them
That place and position.

I hope that’s ok…

Marty

 

[revmarty]

The Trinitarian Belief is not recorded. No where in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost is a separate entity.

A completely literal veiw of scriture shows that the Trinity is as farfetched as you claim the Primacy of Peter is.

But I believe in a trinitarian God because the church tells me so, no other reason.

I can defend Marian doctrines better than I could defend the Trinitarian Doctrine.

I believe everything I believe about God because his word tells us so and his word is final.
In the book of Isa 48:16 and then in 61:1 you see clearly the Son (Jesus) talking and making reference to the Father and HS.

You can compare this to Luke 3:14 and that will confirm that the Son (Jesus) is speaking.

Marty

 

[revmarty]

The Trinitarian Belief is not recorded. No where in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost is a separate entity.

A completely literal veiw of scriture shows that the Trinity is as farfetched as you claim the Primacy of Peter is.

But I believe in a trinitarian God because the church tells me so, no other reason.

I can defend Marian doctrines better than I could defend the Trinitarian Doctrine.

Also the fact that your tag is a quote from a false Teacher mahatma leaves you in the place of being unbelievable.

 

[mercygate]

I believe everything I believe about God because his word tells us so and his word is final.
In the book of Isa 48:16 and then in 61:1 you see clearly the Son (Jesus) talking and making reference to the Father and HS.

You can compare this to Luke 3:14 and that will confirm that the Son (Jesus) is speaking.

Marty

Yes. Yes. All Christians use these texts. And all of us “see” the Trinity – largely because this doctrine has been non-negotiable for nearly 1700 years. But it is definitely not laid out in point-by-point detail. Several denominations flatly deny it.

Why do you believe the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God? Because even if you can discern the doctrine of the Trinity from Scripture, that still leaves you with the question of how you know that the Scriptures are the Word of God. Scripture cannot credibly attest to itself.

 

[mercygate]

Also the fact that your tag is a quote from a false Teacher mahatma leaves you in the place of being unbelievable.

Tsk, tsk, Marty. You’re indulging in the genetic fallacy: if something originates from a doubtful source, then it must be contaminated.

C’mon. A guy with “Rev” in his user name can do better than that! :ehh:

 

[revmarty]

Yes. Yes. All Christians use these texts. And all of us “see” the Trinity – largely because this doctrine has been non-negotiable for nearly 1700 years. But it is definitely not laid out in point-by-point detail. Several denominations flatly deny it.

Why do you believe the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God? Because even if you can discern the doctrine of the Trinity from Scripture, that still leaves you with the question of how you know that the Scriptures are the Word of God. Scripture cannot credibly attest to itself.

Please be patient with me, if supposing the Pope, the Christian father and tradition decree a thing to be then that is it no more negotiation, is that correct.

you see that text in Isaiah, you claim, christians use all the time does not fully demonstrate three distinct persons, what hope does the Christian church have if not the vain fact that the “Church” decree’s it and now I believe it? how absurd.

who say’s scripture does not atest to itself, please explain? I believe the word God because in John 10:35 Jesus tells us that the scripture (the Bible) is as good as Gods word, and Jesus does not look to religion or mans traditions to back up what he said and did.

and in ACTS 4:19 The apostles gave us a great example of breaking away from tradition or our religion when it contradicts Jesus own words.

Marty

 

[estesbob]

I believe everything** I believe about God because his word tells us so and his word is final.**
In the book of Isa 48:16 and then in 61:1 you see clearly the Son (Jesus) talking and making reference to the Father and HS.

You can compare this to Luke 3:14 and that will confirm that the Son (Jesus) is speaking.

Marty

Based on who’s interpertation of his word?

 

[estesbob]

and in ACTS 4:19 The apostles gave us a great example of breaking away from tradition or our religion when it contradicts Jesus own words.

Marty

I guess thats you personal interpertation as it doesnt say a word about tradition. It is intersting what they go on to say :

20 “we cannot help speaking about what we **have seen and heard.” **

---

---

They didn’t mention scripture at all; did they?? They were talkking about ORAL tradition!

 

[revmarty]

Based on who’s interpertation of his word?

Well the word of God says to those who are lost the message of the cross is foolishness to us who are being saved it is the power of God, so to the foolish they may believe that they need a man to paint it out for them, However to the true Christian, follower of Christ it doesn’t requier a brain surgion or group of theologians to point out the truth. although, theologians do exist outside the Catholic faith and they too have searched the scriptures and found the drivel and pomt of the traditional Church, corrupt as it is, and to be wanting in the truth.

fortunatley we have the priveledge and freedom to be able to question the lies of tradition with out fear of being put to death or sent into excile, and better still we have the word of God in easy to read lanquages for the commen man, thanks to men who stood against the wishes of the C.Church to reveal the word of God to every person who is willing to read and search for themselves.
Proverbs 25:2 it is the Glory of God to conceal a matter it, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter. **God doesn’t hide things from us but for us. **

 

[revmarty]

Tsk, tsk, Marty. You’re indulging in the genetic fallacy: if something originates from a doubtful source, then it must be contaminated.

C’mon. A guy with “Rev” in his user name can do better than that! :ehh:

No, I have no tolerance for a False teaching, and no apologise for that. and unfortunatly revmarty was all I could settle on as you guy’s got all the good names already.

Thanks MG