Holy Fire in Jerusalem: true or false?

[Kaste]

On Easter Orthodox from around the world still celebrate the miracle of a mysterious fire that ignites every year in the Church of the Holy Seplechure, and only works supposedly for Orthodox. Pope Clement in 1095 told the departing Crusaders that they will get to witness this holy fire. But in 1099 the fire wouldn’t start for anyone but the Orthodox.

Is this amazing miracle fact or a pius fraud?

thanks,
K

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

On Easter Orthodox from around the world still celebrate the miracle of a mysterious fire that ignites every year in the Church of the Holy Seplechure, and only works supposedly for Orthodox.

From what I understand the miracle only works for a particular bishop. The Orthodox have acknowledged theyve fallen in errors before, I always wondered if it occured during those times.

Pope Clement in 1095 told the departing Crusaders that they will get to witness this holy fire.

Thats amazing! only if there was a pope clement in 1095. The only “Pope Clement” in 1095 was wannabe pope Guibert who called himself “Clement III”

 

[Kaste]

Thanks for the correction Berhane. I confused “Clermont” with “Clement” in 1095. Here’s the article: thetablet.co.uk/article/3458

Has the papacy ever come out against it?

If anyone knows if it’s true or not, please do comment~

K

 

[ljubim]

I believe it’s true… and has been hijacked by some to say that the Catholic Church is false. We have so many miracles that happen regularly and often, this is one of them.

Rome hasn’t had anything to say about it as far as I know of.

If I ever make it to Jerusalem I am for sure going during Pascha:thumbsup: I would really like to see this for myself one day. Just check out the youtube videos and all the bells ringing… What a place to be! I can’t even imagine

 

[bpbasilphx]

\From what I understand the miracle only works for a particular bishop. The Orthodox have acknowledged theyve fallen in errors before, I always wondered if it occured during those times.\

**Actually, the miracle of the Holy Fire takes place when celebrated by the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, or in his absence (as when he is ill), a bishop he appoints.

I’ve met too many people who have been there for it to doubt it.

My father once asked a certain controversial Orthodox bishop mentioned in these fora when he was converted. The priest-monk (as he was at the time) replied, “I’ve always been Orthodox.”

Dad asked him, “I didn’t ask you when you became Orthodox, I asked you when you were converted.”

He replied, “When I was in Jerusalem for the Holy Fire. I held the flame against my beard and face, and there was no heat until I left the Church.”**

 

[jamison]

This is absolutely fascinating. I hope more members will chime in about this. As a New Roman Catholic, I find this very interesting. I hope we can discover if this is real and wh it will not work for Roman Catholics.

 

[Mintaka]

I don’t think it’s a fraud; but it seems pretty clear from my patristics readings that it’s always been a nifty piece of Roman/Jerusalem Christian technology, not a miracle per se. It operates only when set up beforehand. Clearly, if you kick out the people in charge of working the Holy Fire, no Holy Fire is going to work. When they come back, it works.

Stained glass windows aren’t miracles. The dome of the Hagia Sophia isn’t a miracle. Rosepetals falling through the “oculus” of the Pantheon church in Rome – that’s not a miracle, either. Whizzing the Baby Jesus statue into the manger on a zipwire down from the choirloft of an Italian-American parish church – also not a miracle.

They’re visual aids. They give glory to God with ingenuity. They show us beauty and wonder, and point to Beauty Himself and the awe we should feel before Him.

The later Roman Empire (ie, Byzantium) was not short on chemical knowhow, as witness the existence of “Greek fire” – which even today has not really been duplicated. So I have no doubt that Holy Fire is a marvelous remnant of those days of great creativity in early Christendom. Not a miracle, but a great piece of traditional Christian art.

The commonest theory is that the fire is the result of “painting” something with white phosphorus dissolved in a natural solvent ahead of time. When the solvent dries, the phosphorus remains, and does what phosphorus does in contact with air – catches fire spontaneously.

There are two things in favor of this. First, phosphorus was commonly known and used in Roman/Byzantine times (under the name of “white naphtha”. Second, phosphorus is a natural substance that comes from rock, and therefore would qualify as an appropriate “natural” substance for lighting the Easter Fire as a “new” fire. (Usually one uses flint and steel (sometimes in lighter form, these days) or fire by friction.) But I’m sure there are other possible explanations.

Heck, it’s entirely possible that God does send down fire from heaven directly. He can do whatever He feels like.

 

[TinaG]

There are a number of websites and articles on line about the Holy Fire that can be found easily. There is not only the Fire itself but balls of light, lightning and bells ringing without human assistance.

I would love to be able to go and see this for myself.

-Tina

 

[ljubim]

I want to add that the Orthodox and catholic churches are really the only ones that have theese sort of miracles. More common with Orthodox are icons weeping, blood water or incense, and Catholics with statues, and rosaries. And of course we both have Eucharistic miracles and apparitions

 

[ricko]

There was a thread on this about a year ago with some videos of the “miracle fire”. To be totally objective, when I saw the video, all you see is a torch being passed out of the tomb to someone else. Everyone is holding little torches. As you watch you can see everyone is in a frenzy and the area is shoulder to shoulder. They claim that torches light by themselves but what you actually see is one lighting off another. They also claim that the fire does not burn and you see people hold their hand over the fire but the hand is held over the fire for only a second or two. I can do the same with a candle. If you do a search here or on the web you should be able to find the video. I am not convinced it is an actuall miracle according to what I see in the video. I am actually embarassed for them and us.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Among other people I know who have been for the Holy Fire in Jerusalem, and have seen the lamps miraculously lit is the local Melkite priest.

 

[TinaG]

There was a thread on this about a year ago with some videos of the “miracle fire”. To be totally objective, when I saw the video, all you see is a torch being passed out of the tomb to someone else. Everyone is holding little torches. As you watch you can see everyone is in a frenzy and the area is shoulder to shoulder. They claim that torches light by themselves but what you actually see is one lighting off another. They also claim that the fire does not burn and you see people hold their hand over the fire but the hand is held over the fire for only a second or two. I can do the same with a candle. If you do a search here or on the web you should be able to find the video. I am not convinced it is an actuall miracle according to what I see in the video. I am actually embarassed for them and us.

Look at some more videos. There are people washing their faces in the candleflames, and I saw one where they followed the Patriarch, who was passing the flame along and when the camera was behind him, candles far ahead of him were lit. There are also balls of light that have been videotaped. Then there are the stories of the bells, and flashes of light.

I would love to go see this for myself.

-Tina

 

[Ghosty]

Look at some more videos. There are people washing their faces in the candleflames, and I saw one where they followed the Patriarch, who was passing the flame along and when the camera was behind him, candles far ahead of him were lit. There are also balls of light that have been videotaped. Then there are the stories of the bells, and flashes of light.

I would love to go see this for myself.

-Tina

Just my thoughts:

The flame gets passed on well ahead of the Patriarch, though. He continues to touch his candle to those who approach him, but the people who receive it are to pass it along to others in a chain.

As for washing their faces and hands in the flames, it can be done with any candle at any time and I have a beard. I do it at parties for fun, and can actually keep my hand over and in fires much longer than anyone has in any of the videos. Flame is not hot itself, but rather the air around it; if you keep your hand moving you can keep it in constant contact with the flame with only minimal warmth. I’ve turned my hands black with soot doing this before, and not so much as a minor burn.

In short, nothing reported about the properties of the flame are unique or special, but merely par for the course. As for the balls of light and such, the videos and photos that claim to show them are very inconclusive, and I’ve read reports from people who were right there in those years who say there was nothing spectacular occuring, just people passing candles as usual.

On a final note, if you read the older accounts of the miracle from centuries ago it was a much different event, with a cloud coming down into the church and lighting all the candles at once, nothing about “flames that don’t burn” being passed from candle to candle. My personal belief is that if the miracle did occur at one time, it no longer does; what is currently described as “the miracle” is not at all the same as it was during the time of the Crusades, and nothing miraculous is truly being described.

Peace and God bless!

 

[TinaG]

Just my thoughts:

The flame gets passed on well ahead of the Patriarch, though. He continues to touch his candle to those who approach him, but the people who receive it are to pass it along to others in a chain.

As for washing their faces and hands in the flames, it can be done with any candle at any time and I have a beard. I do it at parties for fun, and can actually keep my hand over and in fires much longer than anyone has in any of the videos. Flame is not hot itself, but rather the air around it; if you keep your hand moving you can keep it in constant contact with the flame with only minimal warmth. I’ve turned my hands black with soot doing this before, and not so much as a minor burn.

In short, nothing reported about the properties of the flame are unique or special, but merely par for the course. As for the balls of light and such, the videos and photos that claim to show them are very inconclusive, and I’ve read reports from people who were right there in those years who say there was nothing spectacular occuring, just people passing candles as usual.

On a final note, if you read the older accounts of the miracle from centuries ago it was a much different event, with a cloud coming down into the church and lighting all the candles at once, nothing about “flames that don’t burn” being passed from candle to candle. My personal belief is that if the miracle did occur at one time, it no longer does; what is currently described as “the miracle” is not at all the same as it was during the time of the Crusades, and nothing miraculous is truly being described.

Peace and God bless!

I would really like to see this for myself. I would like it to be truly miraculous. At the same time I remember a sermon I heard years ago with a title of “How Come I am Never In the Room When the Blue Fire Passes Over The Congregation?” in which the preacher discussed what we can describe as evangelastic (evangelical + elastic = “stretching what happened”). We all do it or are severely tempted to credit God with things that didn’t happen. We all want to glorify God and sometimes we convince ourselves of the miracle that wasn’t. At the same time there is the miracle that is, and sometimes that is one we miss, whether because it is unobtrusive, private, or otherwise unseen: a gracious act or choice, an act of obedience, a quiet healing or reconciliation, a fortuitous circumstance, etc. But I still would like to see spectacular miracles, and not because I am seeking signs and wonders, but for the glory of God.

• Tina

 

[SingleMomMonica]

On Easter Orthodox from around the world still celebrate the miracle of a mysterious fire that ignites every year in the Church of the Holy Seplechure, and only works supposedly for Orthodox. Pope Clement in 1095 told the departing Crusaders that they will get to witness this holy fire. But in 1099 the fire wouldn’t start for anyone but the Orthodox.

Is this amazing miracle fact or a pius fraud?

thanks,
K

It is True! I know of people who have personally been there to witness it. Plus there are also early Church Father accounts of it as well. There is also the split colum in the Church.

 

[Ignatios]

Greetings to all,
I will constrict this to a few accounts:

1. When critics saw the footage of the Holy Fire, some said “* well all of the flashing is off the cameras…”* But then they went of looking for some other things to discredit this Miracle when we presented them with a historical record that predate the Flash of a Camera or any Camera and they made a mention of those flashes in the Church.
2. The ousted Patriarch of the Holy See of Jerusalem, i.e. IreneosI, few years ago ( he was ousted because some involvement in some moral issues, selling an old land that belong to the Patriarchate) and after the Orthodox Patriarchs held a pan-orthodox council to look at the problem … they deposed of him and brought his rank down to a Monk, but he refused to leave so he was forced out, and while under shoving, pushing, pulling him things got so much out of hand that one of the people hit him with a empty bottle, during this one of the journalist ( believe to be Catholic) asked him( the Patriarch), " …Is the Holy Fire fake, Is the Holy Fire fake, aren’t the Church making this up to collect money…"
   The ousted Patriarch answered with a loud voice and while the fits falling down on him and as being ousted by the Orthodox faithful and by a decision from his Synods and also by a decision from the Pan-Orthodox Council, saying " NO NO the Holy Fire is True … The Holy Fire is true "

IF he( the Patriarch) didn’t witnessed the Holy Fire first hand and if he had only heard about it, I have no doubt that he would have revenged right then and there, For it takes a Miracle for someone to not revenge under these circumstances, Literally.

1. For the sake of argument let us pretend that it is not a Miracle, and let us pretend and call it a secret as many would like it to be, YET STILL takes a Miracle to keep a secret that it keeps happening every year to remain veiled for 1200 (THOUSAND AND TWO HUNDRED YEARS) YEARS.

GOD bless †††

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Greetings to all,
I will constrict this to a few accounts:

1. When critics saw the footage of the Holy Fire, some said “* well all of the flashing is off the cameras…”* But then they went of looking for some other things to discredit this Miracle when we presented them with a historical record that predate the Flash of a Camera or any Camera and they made a mention of those flashes in the Church.
2. The ousted Patriarch of the Holy See of Jerusalem, i.e. IreneosI, few years ago ( he was ousted because some involvement in some moral issues, selling an old land that belong to the Patriarchate) and after the Orthodox Patriarchs held a pan-orthodox council to look at the problem … they deposed of him and brought his rank down to a Monk, but he refused to leave so he was forced out, and while under shoving, pushing, pulling him things got so much out of hand that one of the people hit him with a empty bottle, during this one of the journalist ( believe to be Catholic) asked him( the Patriarch), " …Is the Holy Fire fake, Is the Holy Fire fake, aren’t the Church making this up to collect money…"
   The ousted Patriarch answered with a loud voice and while the fits falling down on him and as being ousted by the Orthodox faithful and by a decision from his Synods and also by a decision from the Pan-Orthodox Council, saying " NO NO the Holy Fire is True … The Holy Fire is true "

IF he( the Patriarch) didn’t witnessed the Holy Fire first hand and if he had only heard about it, I have no doubt that he would have revenged right then and there, For it takes a Miracle for someone to not revenge under these circumstances, Literally.

1. For the sake of argument let us pretend that it is not a Miracle, and let us pretend and call it a secret as many would like it to be, YET STILL takes a Miracle to keep a secret that it keeps happening every year to remain veiled for 1200 (THOUSAND AND TWO HUNDRED YEARS) YEARS.

GOD bless †††

Yes it is true and it’s been ongoing for centuries and witnessed and documented by various Saints.

It is truly a miracle! A miracle of God reminding us that the Holy Spirit continues to guide the Orthodox Church & also confirming the correct dating of Pascha.

 

[ralphinal]

It is cool. I have no reason to deny it as a maricle or to accept it as one. I do have one question, and I hope this does not offend anyone.

What is the point? It seems like this is a miracle with no real point…

 

[Ignatios]

It is cool. I have no reason to deny it as a maricle or to accept it as one. I do have one question, and I hope this does not offend anyone.

What is the point? It seems like this is a miracle with no real point…

How about glorifying GOD with tears and repentance or with Joy that radiate to others, or maybe a light that people of other faith may see or have seen that brought them to the true faith as that Muslim soldier or whatever he was said when he saw that Holy Fire and accepted the true faith of GOD … etc etc etc, as we read from the testimony of many and as always there is many believers and many unbelievers …and it is ok, for Saint Thomas did not believe untill he put his hand on the wound of CHRIST, BUT I believe without seeing, do you ???

GOD bless you all †††

 

[ralphinal]

How about glorifying GOD with tears and repentance or with Joy that radiate to others, or maybe a light that people of other faith may see or have seen that brought them to the true faith as that Muslim soldier or whatever he was said when he saw that Holy Fire and accepted the true faith of GOD … etc etc etc, as we read from the testimony of many and as always there is many believers and many unbelievers …and it is ok, for Saint Thomas did not believe untill he put his hand on the wound of CHRIST, BUT I believe without seeing, do you ???

GOD bless you all †††

Oh, I do. I need no miracle at all, and yet Jesus has given me the Sacraments. That is all I need.

Here is what I am saying. Both Orthodoxy and Catholicism are full of stories of miracles of saints. Some of them are wonderful, some seem silly. None of them matter next to the reality that is God.

I am not denying that some may be reached through the Holy Fire. It just seems unlike any miracle in the Bible, especially those worked by Jesus.