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Ag_not
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Does the Catholic Church in Rome accept this as a miracle that occurs every year?
holyfire.org/eng/velich.html
holyfire.org/eng/velich.html
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avenger
Guest
Think for yourself now…do you? Even though it isnt from the RCC?
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LilyM
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I don’t know that the Church has ever made a pronoucement one way or another
Being an Orthodox miracle, I strongly doubt they’d have any interest in doing so anyway.
They have enough to do with investigating the claims of miracles in regard to candidates for sainthood, and investigating alleged Catholic apparitions.
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rad
Guest
Yes.
I found this on the Forum.
Here is what Pope Urban said of the Holy Fire in 1096 when he was urging Western Christendom to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims:
"Of holy Jerusalem, brethren, we dare not speak, for we are exceedingly afraid and ashamed to speak of it. This very city, in which, as you all know, Christ Himself suffered for us, because our sins demanded it, has been reduced to the pollution of paganism and, I say it to our disgrace, withdrawn from the service of God. Such is the heap of reproach upon us who have so much deserved it! Who now serves the church of the Blessed Mary in the valley of Josaphat, in which church she herself was buried in body?
But why do we pass over the Temple of Solomon, nay of the Lord, in which the barbarous nations placed their idols contrary to law, human and divine? Of the Lord’s Sepulchre we have refrained from speaking, since some of you with your own eyes have seen to what abominations it has been given over. The Turks violently took from it the offerings which you brought there for alms in such vast amounts, and, in addition, they scoffed much and often at Your religion. And yet in that place (I say only what you already know) rested the Lord; there He died for us; there He was buried.
"How precious would be the longed for, incomparable place of the Lord’s burial, even if God failed there to perform the yearly miracle! For in the days of His Passion all the lights in the Sepulchre and round about in the church, which have been extinguished, are relighted by divine command. Whose heart is so stony, brethren, that it is not touched by so great a miracle? Believe me, that man is bestial and senseless whose heart such divinely manifest grace does not move to faith!
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Ag_not
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Thanks LilyM - just wondering. It’s a truely extrodinary event if genuine, so I find it a bit strange that the Catholic Church in Rome would not be somehow involved with it, in some way.
Off topic
at avenger - I have no idea what he said in this thread but he has no clue how the ignore button works. 
He was first to reply on the thread (I can see his name only, but not his post as he’s on my ignore list) so he has not, as he claims, got me on ignore. That’s called a lie, avenger 
Though, Im sure you can find a bit of scripture to make out lying is ok too 
I, however, do have you on ignore and cannot see your postings, only your name where you post so save it /off topic
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avenger
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to all, in defense of ag’s lack of sanity, I NEVER said I had him on ignore, he said he had ME on ignore. It is sad when they cant even keep up with their own drivelThanks LilyM - just wondering. It’s a truely extrodinary event if genuine, so I find it a bit strange that the Catholic Church in Rome would not be somehow involved with it, in some way.
Off topic
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LilyM
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Why? Have the Orthodox shown any interest in any of Catholicism’s extraordinary events?
In the numerous apparitions of Our Lord and Our Lady to Catholic saints?
In the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima?
Or the numerous miracles at Lourdes?
Or the miraculous cure Mother Teresa performed after death for which she was declared Blessed a few years ago?
Not to mention the singular disinterest Orthodox and Catholic authorities BOTH show in investigating claims of miracles within other faiths - the numerous reported ‘miracles’ of Indian guru Sai Baba, for example, or the ‘miraculous’ healings allegedly performed by certain televangelists.
Ours is not a faith that should be overly concerned with such allegations of the miraculous, whatever their source, since it is more blessed to not see and yet believe.
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rad
Guest
These are the recorded words of Pope Urban II
I have found them on several places on the net, for example, in the book
“The First Crusade”
By Edward Peters
This is on the net as a Google Book.
For many hundreds of years when the Patriarch of Jerusalem was subject (as you might say) to the Pope the Holy Fire appeared. It was a miracle loved by the West as by the East.
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Ag_not
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I took you off ignore just now, as I felt bad having someone on an ignore list. After all, we’re supposed to be charitable and christian to each other. However, as you’ve just proven yourself to be a liar, (CLICK HERE FOR THE WORLD ACCORDING TO AVENGER) you’re going back on it now, and staying on it for good. God Bless you. Look up ‘‘thou shalt not bear false witness’’
Now, back on topic, I find that interesting that something as awesome as The Holy Fire is not widely known about or spoken about outside of the Eastern Church. I take the point about the Marian miracles. Dunno where Im going with this - just wondering out loud I guess.
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rad
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I located the quote, as I said, here on the Forum. If you run a forum search on a word such as bestial you will find it easily.
When you asked for a specific reference I did a web search and found the Google book which I have referenced. There you will find this information about this. The homily of Pope Urban II was recorded by several people. The Google book does not permit me to cut and paste so you need to read it for yourself.
I am puzzled how the Catholic Church is seen as in doubt about this miracle. It was occuring for hundreds of years before the schism divided us and many people from the West made the pilgrimage to Jerusalem to witrness the Holy Fire. There are sites on the net with their accounts of wirnessing the Fire in the church of the Holy Sepulcher.
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LilyM
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No I don’t need to read it for myself. I’m not going to do your homework for you and trawl through a book to find another document to find a quote.
I don’t expect you to cut and paste the quote, but at least you need to either provide a link to the page of the book where it’s quoted, or tell us the name of one of those original documents where it’s recorded, if you expect us to believe it.
The Catholic Church doesn’t necessarily doubt, it just doesn’t care much. Why should it? Do we need miracles to prove that Christ truly died and rose? Or that the Holy Sepulchre is truly the site of His tomb? Or to show us anything that we don’t already know and believe?
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rad
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Dear sister,
I have already provided the name of a book above. The book is available on Google books. By using the search function you will immediately find the correct pages.
That is your viewpoint and deserves respect. But I was making a reply to the original question posted in message 1 by Ag_not.
But you have a point indeed. For some modern people this miracle may be only a distraction and a temptation. Here is something written by an English deacon
"The light to be sat on a stand is that of Christ, not his miracles. Miracles are gifts given to aid our infirmity. They are like treasures, to be guarded and protected. They are meaningless apart from the life in Christ in which they are given.
"To set a miracle ‘on a lampstand’, especially in the modern world, would only fuel the secular fascination with the ‘magical’ and ‘supernatural.’ "
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Ag_not
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Ok that is interesting. reason I say this is because Im thinking about miracles at the moment. And was wondering as part of this thinking what we see so little of the healing of the sick, etc as commanded by Christ Himself. Interesting. It seems to have be commonplace in the early days of the church, now relegated to the sidelines.
But then as LilyM said, it’s more blessed to not see and yet believe.
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rad
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Dear Ag_not,
Here is a modern Roman Catholic assessment of the Holy Fire.
The author is a lecturer at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome
“The Miracle of the Holy Fire in Jerusalem”
By Niels Christian Hvidt
voskrese.info/spl/hvidt-fire.html
The article includes not only Dr. Hvidt’s own narrative, but also an interview with Patriarch Diodoros I.
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avenger
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ROFL…dude, I quoted from YOUR post and responded to it…Youre a RIOT!I took you off ignore just now, as I felt bad having someone on an ignore list. After all, we’re supposed to be charitable and christian to each other. However, as you’ve just proven yourself to be a liar, (CLICK HERE FOR THE WORLD ACCORDING TO AVENGER) you’re going back on it now, and staying on it for good. God Bless you. Look up ‘‘thou shalt not bear false witness’’
Now, back on topic, I find that interesting that something as awesome as The Holy Fire is not widely known about or spoken about outside of the Eastern Church. I take the point about the Marian miracles. Dunno where Im going with this - just wondering out loud I guess.
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LilyM
Guest
Then it is up to YOU to use that search function and up to YOU to point me to the correct page, if you expect me to accept the quote, thanks.
If you were in court you wouldn’t expect to get away with just asserting that there’s a case in a certain book proving a point of yours. Unless you could BOTH name the case AND refer the judge at least to the correct page of the right book, he or she wouldn’t need to accept it. Most of the time you’d have to actually photocopy the whole case and provide that to the judge too.
It’s just insulting to expect anyone to waste a second of their time searching for your evidence for you. It’s your job, if you’re arguing something, to at least give an internet link to the actual page, not just the book.
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rad
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Dear sister,Then it is up to YOU to use that search function and up to YOU to point me to the correct page, if you expect me to accept the quote, thanks.
If you were in court you wouldn’t expect to get away with just asserting that there’s a case in a certain book proving a point of yours. Unless you could BOTH name the case AND refer the judge at least to the correct page of the right book, he or she wouldn’t need to accept it. Most of the time you’d have to actually photocopy the whole case and provide that to the judge too.
It’s just insulting to expect anyone to waste a second of their time searching for your evidence for you. It’s your job, if you’re arguing something, to at least give an internet link to the actual page, not just the book.
I think that the article by Niels Christian Hvidt “The Miracle of the Holy Fire in Jerusalem” is a fairly good answer to the question for which this thread was opened on the Forum. It is up to date and it is written by a professor of the Pontifical Gregorian University, Rome.
voskrese.info/spl/hvidt-fire.html
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